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There is no talent shortage

apaitch.com

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Re: There is no talent shortage

#71

Post by AUmrysh »

zanny wrote: post #44
k_kelly wrote: post #32

Then what does a talent shortage look like? This article is arguing that the current situation is because companies wont employ below a minimal technical competence. New, brand new, out of college only done programming in college programmers can expect massive starting salaries, the best equipment, and probably lunch and accommodation with a strong chance that they'll get a higher salary the year after. Few companies…

I am a brand new, out of college, only done programming in College (graduated in 2 years) and job hunting is a PITA because 99% of HR's don't even look at me. The BS in CS is not everything, maybe from a top school, but I got mine from a no-name liberal arts college. When the school name doesn't raise eyebrows you do need a sizable experience portfolio to get interviews.

Yep. Well, I went to a similar sort of small liberal arts school (actually they have great business and nursing programs that are only recognized in the local region). I got interviews from Amazon, Cerner, and a few other big companies, but I was completely unprepared for job interviews (my fault, I know). It's not so much that the talent doesn't exist, it's that businesses only want to hire the very best, and they pass over people who show any sign of weakness or being unsure.

I've got a great job now programming all sorts of things, but it's not purely CS, there's a lot of other stuff there too. Perhaps more BS-CS degree earners should look into industrial applications, they're not ashamed to hire people from small colleges.

Re: There is no talent shortage

#72

Post by einhverfr »

I guess one thing that irks me a bit about the article is that it is so employment centric, and yet the logic one should draw from the comparison is to break out of that way of thinking. After all the first guy with years of experience didn't get them on the job.

The moral of the story I would take from it is that if you want to program make a name for yourself, and do so without regard to your employment.

Re: There is no talent shortage

#73

Post by vonmoltke »

JamesLeonis wrote: post #60

Maybe it's just me, but this seems to be in response to an earlier HN post about the entrepreneur prodigy [1] as well as a vague stab at the 10x programmer myth. [1]: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4140048 Largely though "Norman" is more attractive than "John" to businesses because he displays strong signals both in talent and work ethic. "John" might be a hard worker and have talent himself, but because he has…

That Norman is more attractive than John is not in question. The contention is that many companies want a Norman and so will pass over a John, even when a Norman is not available (hence creating the perception of a shortage). Furthermore, these companies usually do not need a Norman; a John would work out fine.

A number of posters in this thread assert that anyone who can write code competently[0] can get a job in this economy. I personally, as with the OP, don't see that. I see two broad groupings of companies[1]. The first group only wants Normans or near-Normans, and complain that there are not enough of them to fill their slots. The second group is happy with Johns, but drops a laundry list of (sometimes conflicting) skills and experience requirements that filter out almost all of the Johns, and then complains that there are not enough of them to fill their slots. I have also encountered an overlapping subgroup of companies willing to compromise somewhat for local candidates.

Unfortunately its difficult to move beyond anecdotes on this matter. I have some that support the OP's point, many here have some that refute it. It would be really interesting to see distrbutions of these anecdotes by geography, experience level, and undergrad program, though.

[0] "Competently" goes beyond writing FizzBuzz in this case. [1] I am not asserting that every company falls into one or the other; my current one does not, though my previous one does. I'm asserting that most do.

Re: There is no talent shortage

#74

Post by vonmoltke »

Wilya wrote: post #68

There is no talent shortage. There is a shortage of Berkeley/Stanford/MIT grads. Just look at the difference between grads of those school, who basically get money thrown at them, and the rest of graduates, who have a hard time finding a job at all.

I know someone who just graduated cum laude with a BS from UIUC who is having trouble.

Re: There is no talent shortage

#75

Post by sanxiyn »

jiggy2011 wrote: post #65
sanxiyn wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You may be surprised, but it is possible to be very talented in programming without much entrepreneurial ambition. Well, the original article mentioned "started two companies" so probably Norman is not looking for jobs. But I do know a person who's been programming since ~12, wrote a 3D game in C++ at ~16 (multiplayer one, thousands of players), and wrote his own OS, and happily employed.

Out of curiosity what were the game and OS?

Try Lesia Online. (Most information is in Korean since he is Korean.)

Re: There is no talent shortage

#76

Post by garysieling »

zanny wrote: post #43
tikhonj wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm actually still going to Berkeley :). The only reason I brought it up was because the allegorical students in the blog post also go there. I have actually avoided HR. I've been too lazy to send out resumes, and I only really want to work at small startups (at least for now). All of the interesting offers I got had some concrete spark independent of my education: for example, I got one after doing well at a hackath…

It also helps you are in CA. Like I said, I live in PA (specifically, rural PA, and I went to a local school) getting any networking whatsoever with not just the Bay area but any reasonable techy area is a pain. You don't know how nice it is to be a few hours train ride from networking galore until your next door neighbor is an Amish bishop :P

How far are you from the Philadelphia area? If you're looking east shoot me an email, the company I work for is always hiring engineers and we don't have any HR filtering yet :)

Re: There is no talent shortage

#77

Post by snowwindwaves »

apaitch wrote: post #24
dspeyer wrote: post #10

This article is playing word-games. When employers and economists talk about talent, they mean capability, regardless of whether it's natural or comes from hard work. Your dictionary may say "natural aptitude or skill", but that's irrelevant to the job market.

I didn't mean to get into the debate between natural talent and skills acquired by work - probably should've cut the "natural" part out of the definition to make that clear. I was thinking of the "potentiality" aspect of talent. I agree that employers want capable employees - preferably able to contribute from day one. I think investing in employees who have the potential to be great contributors but are not quite th…

Growing talent at a company seems to be a bit of a lost concept. I think it went out the door when the company man disappeared: layoffs and lack of raises reducing loyalty.

Re: There is no talent shortage

#78

Post by debacle »

codeonfire wrote: post #30
amcintyre wrote: post #8

"John only started programming in college. He has 3 years of “experience” – much of it spent working on school assignments, not projects – and Norman has 10. John’s not as experienced or capable, but he may well be just as talented as Norman. Norman will get snapped up by a top company and snowball into a “rockstar” developer, whereas John will start (and maybe spend) his programming career in relative obscurity." I'…

Building software is not like installing carpet. You don't just do it for a couple years and become a skilled worker. Its obvious that many misinformed people think that software development is a blue collar job that people go to vo-tech school to learn to do while rebuilding car alternators. This way of thinking comes about because most people's experience with development is usually within a very, very small microc…

> Building software is not like installing carpet. You don't just do it for a couple years and become a skilled worker.

I think you're wrong, there. Building software is, 99% of the time, like installing carpet.

> Is a physicist just as valuable after a few years of doing research as a full tenured professor with 30 years of research?

Terrible analogy. There are grad students who are more valuable than professors on the edge of the retirement. Comparing software development to academia is a specious argument.

Re: There is no talent shortage

#79

Post by jiggy2011 »

sanxiyn wrote: post #75
jiggy2011 wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Out of curiosity what were the game and OS?

Try Lesia Online. (Most information is in Korean since he is Korean.)

This One? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DdgzKHOfUI8

Shame all I can find is that youtube video and no download links etc, that game looks utterly insane and quite fun.

Technically it's only really a 2D game though , still very impressive for a 16 year old.

Re: There is no talent shortage

#80

Post by jiggy2011 »

Wilya wrote: post #68

There is no talent shortage. There is a shortage of Berkeley/Stanford/MIT grads. Just look at the difference between grads of those school, who basically get money thrown at them, and the rest of graduates, who have a hard time finding a job at all.

I noticed this too, whenever I read anything about American Universities (I'm in the UK) for CS it always seems to be one of those 3 especially when it's related to startups.

Is it the case that a CS degree is somehow considered second rate if it is not from one of these universities? Is it a prestige thing or do all the other universities suck for CS?

Obviously we have similar in the UK to an extent with Oxford/Cambridge etc but CS degrees from most universities are well enough respected.

I've done some of the online classes from these 3 universities as well as watched youtube videos from some lectures. For the most part they don't strike me as being especially more difficult than what I did for my CS undergrad (in most cases the difficulty level seems about the same).

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