Live data from Hacker News

There is no talent shortage

apaitch.com

11–20 of 106 posts

Re: There is no talent shortage

#11
post #7

The difference in these scenarios isn't really luck; sure, Norman has a bit of a head start. But John shows almost no interest. He picked a major, but that's about it. "Talent" may not mean exactly what people are talking about in this context, since interest in coding and a desire to learn about computers are just as important as natural ability. You can't say that the person who just goes to class is going to do as…

What happens once a person encounters programming is a different story. I tried, with seemingly mixed success, to portray Jon as someone who is indeed interested in coding - enough to try stuff on his own, and certainly not on a "just to get by" basis - but who did not discover this interest until he picked his major (arbitrarily, perhaps) and actually tried it. Adjusted for age difference, Jon is about as excited about programming as Norman was, but encountered it much later. I think there are many reasons why one would or would not encounter programming at a younger age AND in a manner that excites him (parents, friend circle, alternative entertainment available, neighbourhood, school/teachers, etc). In aggregate, they come down to luck.

Re: There is no talent shortage

#12
Psychologists assume I must associate myself with being uneducated and not given a fair chance.

The reality is I was one of 6 freshmen national merit scholars in my freshman year at ASU--40,000 total students.

I was coddled into honors programs classes... I got to program a Cray.

I felt really proud and elite when I passes the IQ tests to get a job at Ticketmaster. I got one-on-one tutoring at Ticketmaster that made taking my ASU classes a joke... except it got tough when I stretched myself by going into electrical engineering. In computer sciences I had spent all my freetime since 8th grade, so I was not so elite in EE. I got a master's.

My EE was specialized in control systems, literally rocket science.

Re: There is no talent shortage

#13
It is a weird market. I've been job searching pretty hard for the past month in SF and the response has been a bit frustrating. I get tons of people reaching out to me after meeting me at tech meetups, etc, but I'd say over half of those leads end up cutting me at an HR filter before I can even get an interview!

From what I understand it's due to two things-- at 34, I'm older than others going for junior positions. I spent a decade abroad after graduation and have only a year of experience at a tech start-up in Asia. I can kind of understand the pursuit of someone who already knows what they're doing, but on the other hand everyone has to start learning somewhere. Sure my bohemian background and experience starting and running a non-tech business and learning multiple foreign languages doesn't translate directly into usable skills here, but I would have thought that it would have been a strong signal I'm capable of working hard and learning quickly.

Not to overstate things, I am getting a lot of interest and a few interviews and even repeat interviews. It's just that things are moving very slowly, and I'm not getting a great return on the time I put into it. Also, SF is a very expensive city to live in off of savings earned in a developing country!

I think the shortage isn't so much general talent; it's a shortage of people who already have X skill a given business wants right now.

Re: There is no talent shortage

#14
post #13

It is a weird market. I've been job searching pretty hard for the past month in SF and the response has been a bit frustrating. I get tons of people reaching out to me after meeting me at tech meetups, etc, but I'd say over half of those leads end up cutting me at an HR filter before I can even get an interview! From what I understand it's due to two things-- at 34, I'm older than others going for junior positions. I…

"already have X skill" is right but it's not everything. People are irrational about hiring in that they include (filter on) many features which are not really relevant. Like age and weird looking history and lack of salesmanship. These things shouldn't matter if you are just trying to get someone to build things well.

Re: There is no talent shortage

#15
post #4

no. there is absolutely a talent shortage. as proven by 1) the fact that the percentage of of the general population who have an aptitude for "brainy things" in general is pretty much the exact same as it was 20 years ago and 2) the percentage of companies with a need for said people is growing exponentially as software eats the world. basically, all of the new-need companies from point 2 are bottom-feeding all of th…

Even if the hole needs to be filled, there is shortage of brainy people without jobs in this world.

Re: There is no talent shortage

#16
post #10

This article is playing word-games. When employers and economists talk about talent, they mean capability, regardless of whether it's natural or comes from hard work. Your dictionary may say "natural aptitude or skill", but that's irrelevant to the job market.

I hope most people know by now that "natural talent" isn't real.

See books: Outliers, The Talent Code

Re: There is no talent shortage

#17
post #13

It is a weird market. I've been job searching pretty hard for the past month in SF and the response has been a bit frustrating. I get tons of people reaching out to me after meeting me at tech meetups, etc, but I'd say over half of those leads end up cutting me at an HR filter before I can even get an interview! From what I understand it's due to two things-- at 34, I'm older than others going for junior positions. I…

Put your public email in your profile, I was about to contact you about my company but I can't because it isn't listed.

If you want to find work, make yourself easiest to get a hold of. ;)

Also, start hacking up a portfolio.

Re: There is no talent shortage

#18
post #13

It is a weird market. I've been job searching pretty hard for the past month in SF and the response has been a bit frustrating. I get tons of people reaching out to me after meeting me at tech meetups, etc, but I'd say over half of those leads end up cutting me at an HR filter before I can even get an interview! From what I understand it's due to two things-- at 34, I'm older than others going for junior positions. I…

It certainly helps to already have X skill. There may be some positions where that's a non-negotiable requirement. For most, you only need to show some experience with something related to X skill, and a willingness to learn quickly.

The barrier to entry for programming is very low. Anyone can get started and build things. They can put their code up on github and start displaying what they've learned. They need to keep learning and challenging themselves though.

The problem is that there isn't a lot of demand for "smart" or "talented" people who can't contribute quickly. Someone who writes bad code and adds bugs to production software is a drag on everyone else's productivity. In most companies there just isn't the time or resources necessary to teach basic programming skills.

You probably don't need to know skill X to land a job, but you need to show that you can learn it quickly. If you can learn it quickly, then start learning it on your own. Most companies in SF don't care how old you are, they care that you can be productive quickly.

Re: There is no talent shortage

#19
post #10

This article is playing word-games. When employers and economists talk about talent, they mean capability, regardless of whether it's natural or comes from hard work. Your dictionary may say "natural aptitude or skill", but that's irrelevant to the job market.

Exactly. The "talent shortage" is a lack of employable programmers period, not just a lack of exceptional programmers. And this is easy to see: everybody I know in my class (also Berkeley, coincidentally) has managed to get an internship or full time job without much effort. This includes both people with and without experience before college. I managed to get a couple of interesting offers despite never sending my resume out, attending career fairs or even answering recruiter emails. Clearly the market is in the programmer's favor--every programmer's favor.

As far as I can tell, pretty much everybody graduating that wants a job gets a job. Naturally, not everybody goes to work for Google or Facebook, but this includes people even worse than the presumably hypothetical "John".

Also, people like "Norman" are just as likely to get snapped up by Google and then still work in relative obscurity. Well-paid, enjoyable relative obscurity with great benefits and a great culture, but relative obscurity nonetheless.

Really, the talent shortage works like this: you, as a company, would love a "Norman". You'd be happy with a "John". You'd probably be content with anybody who can program. Instead you get "Barry" who can't write a FizzBuzz program in any language. All this puts upward pressure on programmer salaries and benefits (good) and motivates recruiters to spam me about openings for senior Java developers (bad).

Also, a lot of companies do claim to want very good engineers. But I've found this to be empty rhetoric as often as not: for every company claiming that and actually having a stringent interview process and difficult technical problems there's a company willing to accept anybody to work on their CRUD app but wants their ad to sound cool.

Anyhow: there is some shortage of programmers of any but minimal competence. That is what "talent shortage" actually means, and, as far as I can tell, it's actually accurate.

Re: There is no talent shortage

#20
post #13

It is a weird market. I've been job searching pretty hard for the past month in SF and the response has been a bit frustrating. I get tons of people reaching out to me after meeting me at tech meetups, etc, but I'd say over half of those leads end up cutting me at an HR filter before I can even get an interview! From what I understand it's due to two things-- at 34, I'm older than others going for junior positions. I…

You've been searching for a month, you've been getting interviews, even repeat interviews, and you are complaining? Not to make little of your situation, but I don't think you really have a whole lot to complain about, especially because any place with a real HR department is going to take at least a month to get you into a job.

Also, SF is expensive, and if you are staying somewhere expensive in the city while trying to find a job, you're doing it wrong. Move out to Oakland/Berkeley or even Hayward/Fremont, one of the other cheaper places and stretch out your money til you find a job... Then be prepared to look for a place to live, which is harder than finding a job in my experience... Especially if you are out of money by the time you get a job and don't have enough for the deposit of wherever you live.

Be prepared for things to take a long time, and with that in mind try to stretch out your money.

Post reply on HN