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Why do you think people are poor?

harpers.org

281–290 of 292 posts

Re: Why do you think people are poor?

#281
It's interesting that this article mentions Heisenberg. Although the Heisenberg uncertainty principle was formulated for quantum particles, it can be paraphrased as saying that measurements disturb the system being measured. It is perilous to apply quantum physics to the behavior and interactions of humans, but here I believe it is illustrative. Specifically, I think Shorris' study perturbed the system he was trying to measure while he was still in the process of trying to measure its different aspects.

Shorris' argues that the key to escaping poverty is the study of the humanities. His evidence is that a group of carefully selected students who, after being given a year of quality education, seem to be able to escape the poverty that entrapped them. Learning the humanities therefore provides a way out of poverty. While this is an uplifting, perhaps even inspirational message, the conclusions he draws are highly questionable for a plethora of reasons.

1. Response bias: Students expressing interest in the course are likely the most motivated individuals in their respective circles.

2. Selection bias: Students deemed "too impoverished" or "too uneducated" were rejected.

3. Intervention by study conductor: Education and career advice was not only given freely, but volunteered to promising pupils.

3. Variables not controlled: The education included high quality instructors who might have been capable of "inspiring" their students, regardless of the subject being taught, as well as providing an "in" to their respective institutions. Disruption of routine: Students were required to leave their immediate neighborhood and social circles regularly and engage in rigorous study.

4. No control group.

I could go on for a while, but this is sufficient. Shorris' study group consisted of the most highly motivated members of the poor minus those who were the least educated. He then intervened in their lives, not just to give them a quality education, but also by changing their habits, exposing them to the unfamiliar, enhancing their motivation and giving them career/education counseling plus networking connections to the educational institutes of the participating teachers.

I will not dispute that this course was a fantastic idea that enriched the lives of those lucky enough to take it, but it simply cannot be used as evidence for the notion that study of the humanities specifically can be used to combat poverty. Instead, it should be used a model for other similar courses.

Re: Why do you think people are poor?

#282
post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So the question then, as I see it, is "how do we make it more likely?" We'd have to change the structure of society. Its a class structure, and there's only so much room at the top. The wealth of the upper class comes from extracting rents from the lower class. This happens on a global scale (core countries exploiting the periphery) as well as a local scale (landlords with good credit collect more in rent than they…

So, the core(rich) countries include South Korea, Japan, Western Europe, and the United States. What exactly is the periphery? I don't think that there exists the geographic bias you imply.

fwiw, the terminology comes from Immanual Wallerstein.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World-systems_theory#Periphery_...

Re: Why do you think people are poor?

#283
post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whoa there. I merely questioned the notion that simply educating everyone will solve all of our problems. I was implying that there's a lot more to it than that. Look at the media industry, for example - we have developed technology which makes information freely accessible to everyone yet we have a considerable amount of resources being thrown at locking that down, which makes no sense in the grand scheme of things.…

Please forgive me for misinterpreting, since at the only clarification you had at the time of my comment was > And the implication of everybody being well educated is that everyone will have white collar jobs or prestigious blue collar jobs. If everyone is well educated then who will want to take a job as a street cleaner when they've just spent $80k on their education? The solution is clearly not limited to just edu…

I've thought a fair bit about this now and finally understand what point I was trying to make. Educating the poor is not enough because the rich are an integral part of the problem. Just as the poor are so because they lack education, so the rich hold deep prejudices against the poor because of their lack of education. It's just like psychotherapy on an individual scale - the problem is never limited to just the person in question. The problem is the whole family, the whole society, not just one aspect of it.

In other words, our entire society needs to be re-educated in order to solve this problem, not just the poor.

>we would probably start to see the poor creating their own solutions, and further changing our societal structure.

Indeed we would, but we would also see a great deal of resistance to it from the powers that be. This needs to be addressed with equal importance. What's the point of bringing people up when others will just try to push them down more? We need to bring them up and make space to accommodate them.

Re: Why do you think people are poor?

#284
post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anarchism!

Indeed, that was my guess. I'm confident anarchism is not a good solution to any problem, but I fear you may yet get your wish. I doubt you'll like the result. (I'm sure I won't.)

There are many misconceptions about anarchism. It's not about smashing things up or living in a state of chaos. It's merely a lack of hierarchy, where everyone is truly equal. It's simply about putting no man above another. We can still organise in order to get things done. We can still have customs about what's right and wrong. The only difference is that we have true equality. I don't see what's so scary about that. The system we have now - that's scary!

Re: Why do you think people are poor?

#285
post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The concept of inequality is bred into the human psyche If it's inherent then why are there examples of societies which lack it?

The concept of a society with a strong form of equality is, I think, an utopia, and AFAIK, no such society exists. Even if you look at primitive societies, there are better hunters, the tribe leader has more wives than the regular guy, the shaman is revered, etc. One can say that's not what this discussion is about, i.e. it's the potential for equality, the right to be equal rather than the radical definition above,…

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_anarchist_communities

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchism_in_Africa

>One can say that's not what this discussion is about, i.e. it's the potential for equality, the right to be equal rather than the radical definition above, but then the discussion becomes muddled, how to measure inequality, economically (e.g. the Gini index), by asking people, etc. "Inequality" then becomes a very complicated word like "democracy" or "justice".

Personally, I think that it's very simple to define. We know from research that having more money, past the point of no longer being in poverty, does nothing significant to increase happiness. So, in my opinion, equality, in terms of money, is about nobody having to live in poverty and discomfort.

The democracy we are used to is Representative Democracy. When a few people hold all of the power, and we just get to vote for our dictators, what kind of democracy is that!? Personally, I think that Direct Democracy deserves more attention and experimentation. Some countries have been running it for years and their quality of life is among the best in the world.

Re: Why do you think people are poor?

#286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not all returns are someone else's consumption. If that were the case, there would be no industry. You can invest in a business that makes things for businesses or things that are actually investments for consumers. An education is not (usually) consumption for a consumer. Neither is a car that more than pays for itself with the time it saves. Using the same car to go traveling around the country instead of getting a…

Not all returns are someone else's consumption. If that were the case, there would be no industry. It is a good approximation of reality, created by the fact that people have varying preferences for consumption versus investment. An education is not (usually) consumption for a consumer. Neither is a car that more than pays for itself with the time it saves. In neither of these cases does the provider of the car or ed…

The maker of the car does receive a return. Its the price paid for minus all the costs of being in the car business.

A return is not guaranteed, of course. But if there were no return possible, no one would go into the car business.

You say for student there is no asset that can be sold. Not true, at least when the student chooses his education wisely. He can now sell his time for more money. Education is a "factor of production" of his work, which he then can sell.

When I first spoke about investment, I did not mean the narrow meaning you've understood. I was talking about why people are poor and I discussed consuming resources versus using them to produce more resources.

Investing in one's own capabilities or making your own garden are investments that don't involve giving money to someone else and waiting for a return. Successful businesses and successful people make such investments.

Re: Why do you think people are poor?

#287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The argument has never been that it is impossible to rise from poverty. The argument is that it is demonstrably massively unlikely.

The argument has never been that it is impossible to rise from poverty. The argument is that it is demonstrably massively unlikely. So the question then, as I see it, is "how do we make it more likely?" I mean, if I can overcome all sorts of obstacles that are frequently cited as reasons people remain in poverty, and I am not anybody particularly special, then why shouldn't anybody else be able to? What separates a k…

Take a look at Harlem Children's Zone for one model that seems to be helping break the cycle for some. If that can be grown/cloned a couple of orders of magnitude, there may be hope for the country.

Re: Why do you think people are poor?

#288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The argument has never been that it is impossible to rise from poverty. The argument is that it is demonstrably massively unlikely.

The argument has never been that it is impossible to rise from poverty. The argument is that it is demonstrably massively unlikely. So the question then, as I see it, is "how do we make it more likely?" I mean, if I can overcome all sorts of obstacles that are frequently cited as reasons people remain in poverty, and I am not anybody particularly special, then why shouldn't anybody else be able to? What separates a k…

[deleted]

Re: Why do you think people are poor?

#289

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not all returns are someone else's consumption. If that were the case, there would be no industry. It is a good approximation of reality, created by the fact that people have varying preferences for consumption versus investment. An education is not (usually) consumption for a consumer. Neither is a car that more than pays for itself with the time it saves. In neither of these cases does the provider of the car or ed…

The maker of the car does receive a return. Its the price paid for minus all the costs of being in the car business. A return is not guaranteed, of course. But if there were no return possible, no one would go into the car business. You say for student there is no asset that can be sold. Not true, at least when the student chooses his education wisely. He can now sell his time for more money. Education is a "factor o…

When I first spoke about investment, I did not mean the narrow meaning you've understood. I was talking about why people are poor and I discussed consuming resources versus using them to produce more resources.

Ok, but in that case, most poor people simply don't have much to invest in themselves. Most of their efforts are consumed each day in just getting a living (by implication: most people are poor).

Re: Why do you think people are poor?

#290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The maker of the car does receive a return. Its the price paid for minus all the costs of being in the car business. A return is not guaranteed, of course. But if there were no return possible, no one would go into the car business. You say for student there is no asset that can be sold. Not true, at least when the student chooses his education wisely. He can now sell his time for more money. Education is a "factor o…

When I first spoke about investment, I did not mean the narrow meaning you've understood. I was talking about why people are poor and I discussed consuming resources versus using them to produce more resources. Ok, but in that case, most poor people simply don't have much to invest in themselves. Most of their efforts are consumed each day in just getting a living (by implication: most people are poor).

That's not true. We were all poor once. Yet here we are. I grew up poor myself.

Where people are not free, where the government or thieves take their resources, they cannot accumulate anything. And in countries that are still largely poor, that is exactly what happens.

But, when people are able to escape these countries to where they can be free, they are then free to improve their situation. And many do.

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