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Why do you think people are poor?

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Re: Why do you think people are poor?

#271

Post by lotharbot »

Dove wrote: post #80
yummyfajitas wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Real education" sounds dangerously close to a "true Scotsman".

The "no true Scotsman" fallacy is about moving goalposts -- about changing the definition in the middle of the argument. You have to agree on a definition, and then you can argue about whether something fits. That is a completely different issue from arguing about definitions themselves. We can indeed hold opinions on what constitutes a true Scotsman, and even argue about which of those opinions is correct -- so long…

> "The "no true Scotsman" fallacy is about moving goalposts"

More specifically, NTS is moving the goalposts based on irrelevant criteria.

There are times when the goalposts are in the wrong spot, and it's appropriate to stop the main argument, take the time to get your definitions straight, and then move back to the main argument with appropriate goalposts. If you realize that two parties are using different definitions, it's completely appropriate to argue about which definition is correct (possibly "the correct usage for these purposes" rather than "universally correct") before returning to the larger argument.

Re: Why do you think people are poor?

#272

Post by [deleted] »

hapless wrote: post #262
Retric wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with poverty in the US is not 'no money' the problem is not knowing how to live without it. If you have math and problem solving skills you can avoid a lot of huge money sinks everywhere from the grocery store to transportation etc. You can decide to keep your apartment cold enough that your neighbors help heat it. But, when your desperate the idea that you will suffer now to get ahead becomes unacceptabl…

Graduate students are typically well above the poverty line. Graduate student stipends run from $15,000 to as much as $40,000 (for 20 hours of work!) The median wage in America is around $26,000. Many graduate students make more money than the average worker. This is a perfect example of how out of touch we, the professional class, are. Most of us have no idea how little capital (social, financial, and otherwise) the…

[deleted]

Re: Why do you think people are poor?

#273

Post by eli_gottlieb »

stretchwithme wrote: post #138
eli_gottlieb wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But your investment returns are someone else's uninvested consumption. Aggregate demand is like a field of crops, and our society seems to have chosen to eat its seed corn.

Not all returns are someone else's consumption. If that were the case, there would be no industry. You can invest in a business that makes things for businesses or things that are actually investments for consumers. An education is not (usually) consumption for a consumer. Neither is a car that more than pays for itself with the time it saves. Using the same car to go traveling around the country instead of getting a…

Not all returns are someone else's consumption. If that were the case, there would be no industry.

It is a good approximation of reality, created by the fact that people have varying preferences for consumption versus investment.

An education is not (usually) consumption for a consumer. Neither is a car that more than pays for itself with the time it saves.

In neither of these cases does the provider of the car or education receive monetary returns for the car or education beyond the actual price. When I said "investment", I should perhaps have specified capital gains: interest, dividends, or asset appreciation that return monetized value to the investor.

So an education is metaphorically investment for the student, but not for the university. Even for the student, there is no asset owned that can be sold and no legal contract of debt or equity that "their education" has to pay for. There's just a hope of a better-paying job. Hence, "metaphorically" an investment.

Our society has chosen to water down the natural incentives to make prudent investments.

Well no. Our society is struggling to keep its head far-enough above water to avoid a deflationary spiral.

Re: Why do you think people are poor?

#274

Post by eli_gottlieb »

ismarc wrote: post #206

It's hard to write this, and my opinion is probably biased because of it, but this article is nothing but a giant load of horse shit and is a carefully constructed as "feel good" to reinforce the preconceived notions the author had going into it. A little bit of background; I grew up poor, people randomly leaving food on our doorstep poor, my parents giving the bike I had bought with my own earned money to my brother…

Fuck, I grew up upper-middle class and I agree with you wholeheartedly. What good was the course to the woman who got fired from her fast-food job for trying to unionize (which is blatantly illegal but happens all the time)?

What would have been good for her? 1) A liveable wage. 2) A society that doesn't fuck her over for wanting a liveable wage. 3) A society that doesn't fuck her over for trying to get a liveable wage by unionizing.

Re: Why do you think people are poor?

#275

Post by eli_gottlieb »

hapless wrote: post #262
Retric wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with poverty in the US is not 'no money' the problem is not knowing how to live without it. If you have math and problem solving skills you can avoid a lot of huge money sinks everywhere from the grocery store to transportation etc. You can decide to keep your apartment cold enough that your neighbors help heat it. But, when your desperate the idea that you will suffer now to get ahead becomes unacceptabl…

Graduate students are typically well above the poverty line. Graduate student stipends run from $15,000 to as much as $40,000 (for 20 hours of work!) The median wage in America is around $26,000. Many graduate students make more money than the average worker. This is a perfect example of how out of touch we, the professional class, are. Most of us have no idea how little capital (social, financial, and otherwise) the…

I've never heard of a $40,000/year grad-student stipend. The median stipend, AFAIK, is $20k/year for about 50 hours/week of work (when you actually factor in teaching, research, everything beyond the "student's" curricular responsibilities).

Re: Why do you think people are poor?

#276

Post by eli_gottlieb »

lupatus wrote: post #260
kylebrown wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So the question then, as I see it, is "how do we make it more likely?" We'd have to change the structure of society. Its a class structure, and there's only so much room at the top. The wealth of the upper class comes from extracting rents from the lower class. This happens on a global scale (core countries exploiting the periphery) as well as a local scale (landlords with good credit collect more in rent than they…

Wrong. If this were true, then when the colonists from "core" countries left a colonized area, then that area should have seen an increase in wealth because those rent monies would have remained in the colony. The history of numerous areas, such as Haiti, Kinshasa, and Zimbabwe say that this did not happen. The wealth of the upper class comes from courage, determination, intelligence, organization, and productive use…

Actually, in most cases, former colonists immediately stuck the decolonized nation with massive debts conjured up for the "theft" of the national assets. That's why Haiti is still poor: they've been in debt to France for the "theft" of "French" assets in colonial Haiti ever since their revolution.

Re: Why do you think people are poor?

#277

Post by eli_gottlieb »

astrodust wrote: post #250
mindcrime wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a lot to be said for that. If somebody had really sat down and hammered me on the power of compound interest and taught me a little bit about the capital markets, when I was, say, 14 or so... I think I would have made a lot of decisions differently and would probably be better off today. Although, to be fair on this point, I'm not sure it would have helped, because I can't - in retrospect - say that my 14 yea…

Compound interest only works when the interest paid exceeds inflation. Your money is simply rotting otherwise and would be better invested in something that's appreciating at a more rapid rate. Maybe that's wine or stocks or a house. Your parent's generation had savings accounts that paid actual interest. Today you get a token 0.25% on a good day. With the prime rate being so low there's not much to be made by leavin…

Hmm.... investing in wine sounds like a great idea. If it appreciates, you can sell it, and if it doesn't, you can drink it.

Re: Why do you think people are poor?

#278

Post by eli_gottlieb »

greedo wrote: post #122
pron wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have done extremely well, but you're forgetting that most successful rich people, those born to the right parents and in the right neighborhoods, are boring as %!#&, and many of them are not only unmotivated to learn, but quite stupid as well. So it's only the poor who have to really want it. The rich are simply born with it. So economic success is still very much hereditary (though you don't inherit it with your…

That's a magnificent job of stereotyping you've got going there. I can think of lots of "rich people" who have done quite well; Bill Gates springs to mind. I'd love to see some evidence showing that middle class folks aren't financially mobile. I mean seriously? Rich people (oh you qualified it with a "most") are stupid, unmotivated, and boring. I should know not to feed the trolls, but on HN, I can't let this type o…

He's right, you know. I've failed to meet anyone more boring or glib than a set-for-life Harvard student.

Re: Why do you think people are poor?

#279

Post by omgsean »

dedward wrote: post #248
omgsean wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>It only takes a generation and some common thinking for a family to stick together and get ahead, and ensure their children never need to borrow money from a bank to get an education, or buy a house. You don't have to be rich... but why can't we live, you know, a generation ahead? I know a guy who told me his parents paid for all his stuff, his house, etc, and therefore all his work and all that (good tech guy) was…

I can see your point, given the audience here - but I'm in no way unbelievably rich. I'm not working poor, but I'm still freaked out at how I'm going to retire and pay for my kids education, etc. BUT People who live cheque to cheque, if given double the salary, would very shortly still end up living cheque to cheque. Triple it, same thing. I'm not dismissing problems with the system - but I've seen people who make in…

>I'm in no way unbelievably rich.

It's very likely that you are, in fact, unbelievably rich. If you look at the condition that most of the people in the world live in, and even large groups of Westerners, I would bet that you are doing very, very well.

There's nothing wrong with wanting more, or discussing how to better manage your finances, I just don't think that we're really talking about poverty anymore at that point.

Re: Why do you think people are poor?

#280

Post by mhartl »

Produce wrote: post #212
mhartl wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm genuinely curious. Could you email me the word? My address is in my profile. I promise not to share it.

Anarchism!

Indeed, that was my guess. I'm confident anarchism is not a good solution to any problem, but I fear you may yet get your wish. I doubt you'll like the result. (I'm sure I won't.)
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