Why do you think people are poor? • Hacker News Board

Re: Why do you think people are poor?

#141

Post by Mz » Fri, Jun 22, 2012, 1:36 AM UTC

erikpukinskis wrote: post #109

Sad that he tells the students "This will be proof, I hope, of my idea about the humanities". It's Viniece Walker's idea, the woman he met in prison, who earned the idea with her struggles. I wish more people of privilege were aware of how often they "forget" to give credit where credit is due, especially when credit is due to someone of less privilege.

If you read the actual book, you would know he earned the trust of prisoners by confessing his own sins to them. I don't think he states in the book what terrible thing he confessed. Whatever it was, he earned their trust and respect. He in no way held himself above them.

Re: Why do you think people are poor?

#142

Post by mhartl » Fri, Jun 22, 2012, 1:51 AM UTC

Produce wrote: post #107

She's completely correct that it's the culture of the rich which make them rich. What she's completely wrong about is that it's their morality that makes it so. We, the rich, the middle and upper classes, are the ones who fund prisons, we are the ones who do not share our food with our neighbors, we are the ones who refuse to mix with them and share our culture. It's like Terrence McKenna said - "Culture is not your…

I'm genuinely curious. Could you email me the word? My address is in my profile. I promise not to share it.

Re: Why do you think people are poor?

#143

Post by cgoddard » Fri, Jun 22, 2012, 1:52 AM UTC

Poverty is structural. Why are people poor? Largely because they are working jobs that pay shit wages, or live in areas they are too poor to escape, where there are not quality jobs matching the skillset taught to them by society.

This article is elitist bullshit coming from someone who has lived their life completely alien to poverty, who struggles to understand it.

When every type of worker makes enough money to afford to live in a school district with resources and quality educators, have health care, buy groceries, and care for their kids, we'll be in a lot better condition as a society.

Re: Why do you think people are poor?

#144

Post by edderly » Fri, Jun 22, 2012, 2:03 AM UTC

ramses0 wrote: post #55

gms7777 wrote: post #11

I remember reading an article at one point about a study done on high school students. I can't remember exact details, but there was a program where students in areas with bad high schools could apply to be sent to better high schools. If I remember correctly, admission to the program wasn't merit based, but first-come, first-serve. The study compared the students who got into the program, and the students who applie…

Freakonomics story. http://www.freakonomics.com/2007/10/04/more-evidence-on-the-... I can't find the exact reference but I believe somewhere in the book they talk about the mere fact of entering your student into this lottery to go to a better school meant that the student would have better outcomes (regardless of whether they "won" the lottery or not). The idea being that it was the mere "intent" of a parent wanting…

Yeah, there's a nice summary of some of these types of papers here:

http://www.rand.org/pubs/working_papers/2007/RAND_WR460.pdf (section 2.3).

Some people wish to extrapolate that lottery results proves that a (statistically) lower quality pupil going to a a good school is without benefit.

Re: Why do you think people are poor?

#145

Post by sp332 » Fri, Jun 22, 2012, 2:05 AM UTC

randomdata wrote: post #136

sp332 wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Really? because the article directly contradicts you. These people were totally capable of learning, and demonstrated a willingness to learn, but they were not educated.

How do you define education? Something as simple as learning how to interact with people is something that anyone in the presence of other people (which is most people on the planet) can do. Maybe you can't learn computer science in rural Africa, but that's not really what I'm talking about.

Again, the article contradicts this idea. As the course went on, aggressiveness and threats were used less often in arguments, and the debates became more civil. Interpersonal interaction was one of the skills that these people did not pick up in all their years "on the street", but learned in the class.

Re: Why do you think people are poor?

#146

Post by philwelch » Fri, Jun 22, 2012, 2:09 AM UTC

roguecoder wrote: post #78

anonymoushn wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This hasn't been true historically. Almost all of the times we have been confident that we understood something, we have been wrong.

That is because almost all the time we are wrong, whether we were confident or not. However, we were generally less-wrong that were were before. I recommend Asimov's article on the matter: http://chem.tufts.edu/AnswersInScience/RelativityofWrong.htm

There are also step functions when dogma comes into the question. Copernicus and Galileo were both right about heliocentrism, but when heliocentrism was politically incorrect, the scientific consensus was wrong.

Re: Why do you think people are poor?

#147

Post by Daniel_Newby » Fri, Jun 22, 2012, 2:10 AM UTC

aswanson wrote: post #85

hackinthebochs wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These sorts of points are silly, and wrong. If the general tendency of life under evolutionary processes is "diversity", through whatever natural processes are at play, then its reasonable to say in common language that "evolution encourages diversity". Personally, I disagree that evolution encourages diversity. It seems to me that diversity occurs in spite of it, as a result of our ever changing, dynamic, earth.

Yes, it seems evolution 'encourages' homogenization. Natural selection acts as a filter reducing genetic variation in a given environmental setting.

Variety is selected for, as with parasite defenses in the immune system, and frequency dependent selection of social specializations.

Re: Why do you think people are poor?

#148

Post by sparkie » Fri, Jun 22, 2012, 2:11 AM UTC

Because the system makes sure people stay poor.

How many of you were taught in school that if you pay yourself a minimum wage and make up the rest as a dividend/bonus you can avoid paying a significant amount of tax (legally)?

Or how many of you were taught how to become "employable" so that you can earn the same amount of money and pay considerably more tax, unavoidably - because you aren't in control of your own finance.

How many of you were taught to open a bank account as a good way of "organizing your finances" (read: filling the pockets of fat men).

How many of you were taught anything about running your own business and being in control of yourself and your securities?

There's a reason this isn't taught in public schools folks - it's because the people at the top want more for themselves and less for you. They don't care about you - except when you're gullible enough to believe you're making a choice when voting season arrives.

The poor are poor because they think "that's just the way it is," and continue about their lives. It's only when you realize that's not the way it should be, because you're being fucked, that you start to do something about it and make yourself.

Then there's the moral effect. You either see the need to do something to change the system, and remain poor - or you accept it, and realize that the best way for you to make more money is to keep poor people poor (and gullible) - thus prolonging the system.

Re: Why do you think people are poor?

#149

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Jun 22, 2012, 2:13 AM UTC

Jun8 wrote: post #115

Produce wrote: post #107

She's completely correct that it's the culture of the rich which make them rich. What she's completely wrong about is that it's their morality that makes it so. We, the rich, the middle and upper classes, are the ones who fund prisons, we are the ones who do not share our food with our neighbors, we are the ones who refuse to mix with them and share our culture. It's like Terrence McKenna said - "Culture is not your…

I don't know what the exact unutterable "dangerous" solution you have in mind, but I can assure you, that's not it. The concept of inequality is bred into the human psyche (our hardware or software), you cannot get rid of simplistic social constructs such as communism, etc. Even if technology advances to the level of creating robots to do all menial tasks, our concepts and need for inequality will not go away (for a…

[deleted]

Re: Why do you think people are poor?

#150

Post by spydum » Fri, Jun 22, 2012, 2:22 AM UTC

Shivetya wrote: post #106

scarmig wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is it, then, that despite the school someone goes to not mattering in outcomes once you control for external factors, rich people still disproportionately prefer to send their kids to private schools, and are willing to pay 20-30k per year over a decade to do so? I could totally believe that it's totally irrational on the rich parents' part: kids and health are places where people lose much sense of rationality a…

because a private school would not have confined my friend's child to special education because she spoke Spanish in class one day to a friend. Perhaps rich people are getting the result they believe they are supposed to receive? As in, their behavior is modified in minor ways they do not perceive but all towards the goal of increasing the success of the children they enroll? It really comes down to parents. Children…

That is odd.. so politicians should have less freedoms than the citizens they serve? Good luck finding someone to elect. It is bad enough political organizations go dredging through their personal lives. It amazes me people are still willing to serve in public office.