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Dogs can remember names of toys years after not seeing them, study shows

theguardian.com

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Re: Dogs can remember names of toys years after not seeing them, study shows

#201

Post by margalabargala »

SkyPuncher wrote: post #69
margalabargala wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't disagree, especially if they do that every day. There are some times when as humans, we have knowledge that the dog needs to eat now, because they won't have a chance later, for example if going on some trip with the dog where feeding later would be inconvenient. In those cases it's useful to have this trick available.

Or, you just skip a meal. Dog won’t die from being hungry.

For a road trip, sure. If you're going on a very long hike, dog will be very unhappy without those calories.

Re: Dogs can remember names of toys years after not seeing them, study shows

#202

Post by switch007 »

drewmol wrote: post #64
switch007 wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IME all are... Labradoodles are loopy, like most of the bred-for-instagram breeds. Got to expect the abnormal

Some generations of labradoodles are hypoallergenic from my understanding.

That's just false reasoning for buying an Instagram fad dog, save admitting they are buying a fashion accesory

(Yes I'm annoyed by those who buy a dog to be an accessory and don't bother training them. There are loads of them where I live and they are annoying at best and menaces at worst)

Re: Dogs can remember names of toys years after not seeing them, study shows

#203

Post by 082349872349872 »

gradschoolfail wrote: post #198
082349872349872 wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Working dogs definitely guess at what their handler wants. "Running riot" is the term of art for when they do their own thing instead. (advice on choosing a hunting prospect which I've run across: put something startling [alarm clock, etc.] next to the litter, and see how they react. Your best prospects should be among those puppies which first investigate, then ignore, the novelty. Those who never investigate probab…

AIBO (the entity that tirelessly turns my typing into mindfeed) knows roughly what i was looking for :) 2024-09-06 Dogs with prior experience of a task still overimitate their caregiver https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-024-70700-3 (With suggested related content) However, a direct comparison of overimitation timing with humans is necessary to understand if this approach is indeed partly what differentiates dog…

Re: overimitation, I've seen more than one reference (from people who lived through it) that there was a period where it was nearly de rigueur for theoretical computer scientists to wear sandals and socks.

There were 5 seasons of Yes, [Prime] Minister so even if things were pretty episodic intraseasonally IIRC Sir H "wins" all their initial dual duels but by the final seasons, in addition to having climbed the greasy pole, PM H even comes out ahead in direct conflicts with Sir H from time to time.

Oh, I believe my wife is saying there's a message for me: about a Criollo horse, from a Señor Modelo. Sorry, so sorry.

Re: Dogs can remember names of toys years after not seeing them, study shows

#204

Post by gitaarik »

poikroequ wrote: post #197
gitaarik wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, here are both the experiments side-by-side: - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aA5wAm2c01w - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ftr9yY-YuYU

The second video is the one I recall, though it seems I'm the one misremembering details. As for that first video, honestly it feels phony/staged, like all that fake miraculous crap that was common on TV 10-20 years ago.

There's a lot of people that have similar experiences though. You can check the comments on that video. Also the parent comment that started this discussion is an example.

Re: Dogs can remember names of toys years after not seeing them, study shows

#205

Post by hombre_fatal »

iancmceachern wrote: post #105
hombre_fatal wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can’t read the original comment that started this thread, but being bred to be consumed is not the standard of evidence needed to know whether that thing promotes positive or negative health outcomes.

We have this weird attitude in the last couple decades. There is this thought that the factory farms of the last few decades apply to and are the same thing as the gradual development of agriculture and animal husbandry that lead out species out of the animal world into the human one. Agriculture, animal raising, these are what separate us from our ancestors, these are what enable civilization Horses, cows, dogs, cat…

None of this story-telling gets us closer to the answer to the question of how a given food in what quantities impacts our health to what degree and in which direction.

Thankfully we have a better epistemic technology than just-so stories: the scientific method.

Re: Dogs can remember names of toys years after not seeing them, study shows

#206

Post by gradschoolfail »

wizzwizz4 wrote: post #200
gradschoolfail wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

wizzwizz4 seems to be one of those salvated ex-losers* (in the world of Rao’s Gervais Principle ), thus he may or may not engage, but here goes anyways (Shalom lakh Miryam!) in deference to 082349872349872’s curiosity, human beings can, in principle, train dogs (in this very limited context) to walk the fine line between bad faith (not exhibiting distress) and good faith (exhibiting distress). Can they, in reality? *…

Off-topic, but I don't understand your first paragraph / footnote. Are you saying I'm… middle-management? (I'd assume you were calling me "clueless" – an accurate epithet –, if not for the reference to Athena.) Is there any significance to the Hebrew (?) translation of a US idiom derived from Catholicism? I don't have anything further to contribute to this discussion, so if not for that bemusing remark of yours, I wo…

Pls pardon the attempt at Hebrew! I just thought that little bit of interfaith/international interjection might not detract from getting your attention. Slyly, it was a signal to my first responder (who is unusually tolerant of linguistic posing) that I identify with “whisky priests”* (Mexican, but invented by Graham Greene — while avoiding the US?) and that this was a metaphorical swig of whisky before i jump into risky territory :)

The bad vs good faith is a theoretical curiosity of mine, which i can unpack later if either of you are so interested. This theory, as well as the inaccurate epithets, can be said to originate from my reading of 2 comments by you!

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41205833

So clearly, you’re not middle management, even if you claim you are clueless, but your uh, soul, was “salvated” — by virtue of working on something the experts dismissed. [If we take seriously your claim that you weren’t being clever, then that’s good faith in my book. I will say no further about my theory except that it could be a “dial” for scientists to consider.] If nothing else, i would like (quixotically?) to condense your chain of thoughts in that situation into something worth propagating, into science-curious folks’ realities.

As to the curiosity i was deferring to.. (it could also be related to the revolutionary approach of yours, if i’m being very presumptuous — and wrong???) 082349872349872 expressed his inspirational feelings on the matter here https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40600845. Mariatta, child of beauty)

[PDF] A representation of antimatroids by Horn rules and its application to educational systems http://arxiv.org/pdf/1508.05465

Specifically, i wonder if anybody has tried to apply these supposedly efficient algorithms, which model states of teacher+learner, in “real life”.

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whisky_priest

Re: Dogs can remember names of toys years after not seeing them, study shows

#207

Post by 082349872349872 »

gradschoolfail wrote: post #206
wizzwizz4 wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Off-topic, but I don't understand your first paragraph / footnote. Are you saying I'm… middle-management? (I'd assume you were calling me "clueless" – an accurate epithet –, if not for the reference to Athena.) Is there any significance to the Hebrew (?) translation of a US idiom derived from Catholicism? I don't have anything further to contribute to this discussion, so if not for that bemusing remark of yours, I wo…

Pls pardon the attempt at Hebrew! I just thought that little bit of interfaith/international interjection might not detract from getting your attention. Slyly, it was a signal to my first responder (who is unusually tolerant of linguistic posing) that I identify with “whisky priests”* (Mexican, but invented by Graham Greene — while avoiding the US?) and that this was a metaphorical swig of whisky before i jump into r…

> Science is the study of what is _not_ true, of falsification: how _not_ to cure a patient, how _not_ to go to the moon.

So in this model, scientists are the avalanche dogs who report "nope, no people over there" and thereby help narrow down the rescuers' efforts?

Re: Dogs can remember names of toys years after not seeing them, study shows

#208

Post by 082349872349872 »

gradschoolfail wrote: post #206
wizzwizz4 wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Off-topic, but I don't understand your first paragraph / footnote. Are you saying I'm… middle-management? (I'd assume you were calling me "clueless" – an accurate epithet –, if not for the reference to Athena.) Is there any significance to the Hebrew (?) translation of a US idiom derived from Catholicism? I don't have anything further to contribute to this discussion, so if not for that bemusing remark of yours, I wo…

Pls pardon the attempt at Hebrew! I just thought that little bit of interfaith/international interjection might not detract from getting your attention. Slyly, it was a signal to my first responder (who is unusually tolerant of linguistic posing) that I identify with “whisky priests”* (Mexican, but invented by Graham Greene — while avoiding the US?) and that this was a metaphorical swig of whisky before i jump into r…

> Specifically, i wonder if anybody has tried to apply these supposedly efficient algorithms, which model states of teacher+learner, in “real life”.

Here is a real life (albeit informal) example: when I was still in the Old Country, a professional trainer told me the following (translated here to the notation of [Yoshikawa et al 2018]) about his process of "tuning up" horses that someone else (usually the client themself) has messed up:

1. Be an expert: this means (at least implicitly) knowing R*

2. Ask the horse to do a task involving Q. If the horse does it perfectly, the owner needs work. (if you like dealing with humans and also know R'*, start over by teaching the owner at step 1 and Q'; if you don't like dealing with humans or don't know R'*, pass the buck to a colleague who does both)

3. At this point determine if the horse either (a) doesn't realise you wanted Q, (b) can't do Q because they're insufficiently fit, (c) can't do Q because they don't know how, or (d) could have done Q but doesn't want to. In the cases of (a) or (d), the remedy is (for the purposes of this example) straightforward. In the cases of (b) or (c) it's more complex, leading to:

4. Walk the antimatroid A(R*) to determine which subsets Q_p the horse can physically do and Q_m the horse knows how to do; in the generic case this will give you a task Q_1 which can be trained having some subset of Q_p ⋃ Q_m as prereqs with a single novel q (unit inference?) to work on.

5. Until the owner says "good enough" (common) or can't ask for Q_n (common, see step 2) or you reach Q (rare), train the other steps of a minimal path Q_2...Q [Exercise: does such a path exist? (easy)]

Re: Dogs can remember names of toys years after not seeing them, study shows

#209

Post by 082349872349872 »

gradschoolfail wrote: post #206
wizzwizz4 wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Off-topic, but I don't understand your first paragraph / footnote. Are you saying I'm… middle-management? (I'd assume you were calling me "clueless" – an accurate epithet –, if not for the reference to Athena.) Is there any significance to the Hebrew (?) translation of a US idiom derived from Catholicism? I don't have anything further to contribute to this discussion, so if not for that bemusing remark of yours, I wo…

Pls pardon the attempt at Hebrew! I just thought that little bit of interfaith/international interjection might not detract from getting your attention. Slyly, it was a signal to my first responder (who is unusually tolerant of linguistic posing) that I identify with “whisky priests”* (Mexican, but invented by Graham Greene — while avoiding the US?) and that this was a metaphorical swig of whisky before i jump into r…

interfaith/international: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y4j55NKXeMk

(background: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imam_Shamil#Musical_compositio... )

Re: Dogs can remember names of toys years after not seeing them, study shows

#210

Post by gradschoolfail »

082349872349872 wrote: post #207
gradschoolfail wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pls pardon the attempt at Hebrew! I just thought that little bit of interfaith/international interjection might not detract from getting your attention. Slyly, it was a signal to my first responder (who is unusually tolerant of linguistic posing) that I identify with “whisky priests”* (Mexican, but invented by Graham Greene — while avoiding the US?) and that this was a metaphorical swig of whisky before i jump into r…

> Science is the study of what is _not_ true, of falsification: how _not_ to cure a patient, how _not_ to go to the moon. So in this model, scientists are the avalanche dogs who report "nope, no people over there" and thereby help narrow down the rescuers' efforts?

Just a clarification here.. there i assumed the readingmode (like you?) in which scientists are to be identified with the badfaith-clueless

So, if i understood ww4 correctly, it is more like,

  dog reports correctly that theres no person, but the rescuers are actually looking for a horse.
Whereas the lazy (=theoretical) engineerdonkey might say, i detected scent of a horse but didnt actually look, was thinking about that windmill, sorry!
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