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The Internet Archive has lost its appeal in Hachette vs. Internet Archive

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Re: The Internet Archive has lost its appeal in Hachette vs. Internet Archive

#481

Post by 71bw »

vesinisa wrote: post #446
lolinder wrote: post #290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with you about copyright, but the fact is that the IA never had a chance and we knew it years ago. The top comment on HN a week after their launch of the EL is critical [0], right at the moment when HN would be most expected to rally to their defense. By the time the lawsuit was actually starting to take shape most commenters had become very concerned for the fate of the IA [1]. This is on a forum that reliab…

Ditto. Worth also noting is that IA lost the case by summary judgement. This usually means that the legal matter was so clear that the judge didn't even see a reason to start a trial. This judgement has now been confirmed on appeal. Just about any lawyer could have probably told them this was the inevitable outcome had they listened. I personally have donated previously to IA but now it frankly disgusts me that the p…

>I personally have donated previously to IA but now it frankly disgusts me that the project's current management has for the last few years had its focus on fighting windmills in court instead of their core mission - preserving our digital history.

I've never donated to them and figured it was the right choice after they started excluding websites from the WayBackMachine - the most vocal case being kiwifarms [1], where they supposedly did so after intervention of a family member of some higher-up [allegedly].

EDIT - as I remembered, the list of excluded site is a LOT larger [2], with a lot of them simply being removed on request. On one hand I understand their choice in this matter, on another - you can willingly be excluded and potentially hide archival stuff of importance...

[1] https://www.theverge.com/2022/9/7/23341051/kiwi-farms-intern... [2] https://wiki.archiveteam.org/index.php?title=List_of_website...

Re: The Internet Archive has lost its appeal in Hachette vs. Internet Archive

#482

Post by immibis »

thfuran wrote: post #304
forrestthewoods wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> let's just focus on publishers No. I'm focusing on all media - books, tv, movies, games, etc. It's one set of copyright laws. > so are physical libraries also nonsense? Copyright strikes a balance of rights between content creators/owners and content consumers. Physical libraries with the limitations of physical transfer strike are a reasonable balance. A global digital pool with instantaneous and unlimited transfe…

The constitution explicitly states that copyright exists "to promote the progress of science and the useful arts". It's not meant to be about serving the financial interests of content owners except insofar as that also benefits society.

That's where the brainwashing comes in: good for society === makes rich people richer

Re: The Internet Archive has lost its appeal in Hachette vs. Internet Archive

#483

Post by authorfly »

ilamont wrote: post #52

This has been playing out for many years. And it's all because Brewster Kahle decided that an overly broad interpretation of the Internet Archive's mission trumped the rights of authors and publishers, and the laws of the United States. When IA was asked to stop CDL - many times - he continued. The National Writers Union tried to open a dialogue as early as 2010 but was ignored: The Internet Archive says it would rat…

Well what he did had some value. It showed me that somebody else in that position can share my beliefs about how the system should function.

"[IA] have diverted resources away from the Wayback Machine, the library of public domain works, and other IA programs that provide real value to society" - to what extent has this had any effect on those services on WayBack machine? Does it not still collect and load a webpage today just as it did in 2015?

The downside loss was low here, the upside was worth it, even if the approach was unlikely to every work. It could lead to change in 100 years. That's important.

Re: The Internet Archive has lost its appeal in Hachette vs. Internet Archive

#484

Post by _kidlike »

pie_flavor wrote: post #365
codedokode wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you misunderstand the situation. If you haven't read the lawsuit [1] I suggest you look through it. Basically, there is an established practice for lending printed books: the library buys a book and lends it to patrons without permission from the copyright owner. However, publishers believe that digital books are different from physical books and established practice doesn't apply to them; they believe that l…

What you describe as lending a digital copy, is making new copies. As a matter of engineering fact, the bytes were copied from one location to another; as a matter of black-letter law, that is making a copy in the sense that it is copyright infringement to do so without a license. That IA 'controlled' it to have only one outstanding copy at a time in hands other than theirs does not make it legal. The carveout saying…

if you wanna get into byte copying, from a legal view, isn't also copying from disk to memory a copy of the book then ?

Re: The Internet Archive has lost its appeal in Hachette vs. Internet Archive

#485

Post by jamesholden »

Key findings and implications:

1. The court rejected IA's fair use defense, finding that its digital lending practices merely substitute for and do not transform the original copyrighted works.

2. IA's activities are likely to cause significant market harm to publishers' e-book and digital licensing businesses, which outweighs any public benefits of expanded access.

3. Allowing widespread unauthorized digital copying and distribution, even by a nonprofit, would undermine the fundamental purpose of copyright law to incentivize creative expression.

4. The ruling highlights the tension between expanding public access to knowledge and preserving authors' and publishers' exclusive rights over their works, which copyright law is meant to balance.

5. The decision sets an important precedent limiting the ability of digital libraries and archives to widely distribute copyrighted works online without permission, even if the intent is to increase public access.

-Kagi Sum

Re: The Internet Archive has lost its appeal in Hachette vs. Internet Archive

#486

Post by jrflowers »

Dalewyn wrote: post #467
jrflowers wrote: post #355

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m kind of curious how this indicates “wanton abandon” Have you downloaded and checked this file to make sure that it is a playable copy of Super Mario Wonder rather than some other file labeled as such? Have you reported it, and if so how long ago?

All you have to do to find warez of all sorts is take a casual browse through their software library. Most of it is actually supplied by ordinary users unrelated to Internet Archive with little to no oversight or curation. I have no idea how effective reporting is, but I would bet it's not meaningful given the prevailing prevalence of warez. And yes, I've downloaded some of those warez and they have all worked. I wou…

Did you verify or report the link to what you claim is a working and playable copy of Super Mario Wonder for Nintendo Switch that you posted here as proof that IA “wantonly distributes warez”?

Re: The Internet Archive has lost its appeal in Hachette vs. Internet Archive

#487

Post by mhuffman »

jandrese wrote: post #45

Very much not a surprise. I think the Internet Archive is providing an invaluable service to humanity in preserving works that would otherwise be lost to time. it is one of the crown jewels of the Internet, doing a job that nobody else is willing to do. But at the same time I know the courts side with publishers pretty much every time and copyright law being such as it is they're totally screwed. The only real questi…

>The only real question is how many trillions dollars will the judgment be.

Calling it now. The number will be so big that they will take ownership of IA and privately "license" that data to openai and similar.

Re: The Internet Archive has lost its appeal in Hachette vs. Internet Archive

#488

Post by 71bw »

rodgerd wrote: post #405
cmiles74 wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How was the CDL hurting working authors? A library bought the book, paying the publisher and the author. The IA scanned the book for digital lending, this digital copy could only be checked out by one person and only when the physical book was not also checked out. I understand the court decided this wasn't okay. That aside, how was it hurting working authors?

I was looking for a clip from a trailer for a film that is available on physical media, streaming, and was in cinemas two years ago. IA had the whole film online as bluray quality rip. What's the difference between the IA and Kim Dotcom at that point?

>What's the difference between the IA and Kim Dotcom at that point?

None. They have, for a long time now, become a good place for outright piracy - both for downloaders and uploaders. It's nice to have such easy access to perfect DVDrips of GTA: SA v1.0 US, but... definitely NOT legal.

Re: The Internet Archive has lost its appeal in Hachette vs. Internet Archive

#489

Post by FMecha »

thimabi wrote: post #216

At this point, the Internet Archive should consider simply moving to another jurisdiction. Decisions like this are a shame, because they hinder a proper way to deal with piracy. Physical libraries compete with book sales too, but of course libraries are lawful. Why should digital libraries be treated differently? Because there are ways to circumvent DRM on Internet Archive books? Well, there are ways to bypass DRM on…

>At this point, the Internet Archive should consider simply moving to another jurisdiction.

Except international copyright treaties exist, which makes copyright enforcement effectively extraterritorial.

Re: The Internet Archive has lost its appeal in Hachette vs. Internet Archive

#490

Post by gavindean90 »

kragen wrote: post #445
AlbertCory wrote: post #272

If I can relate this to movies [1], it might be illuminating: Watching a movie, you normally get a "home viewing" license. That does not give you the right to show it at your business (even if you don't charge money and only 10 people come). There's also a Public Performance Rights (PPR) license, and I always had to get PPR's because Google lawyers would shut us down otherwise. PPR costs considerably more than a home…

there is no such thing as a 'home viewing license'; you don't know the basics of us copyright law, despite having negotiated public performance rights licenses. you need a license from the copyright holder (or a fair use defense) when, and only when, you are doing one of the things reserved to the copyright holder under 17 usc §106 https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/17/106 . specifically, 17 usc §106(4) is publi…

The good part about it was that caused you to comment as well and the information you provided was very enlightening.
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