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The Internet Archive has lost its appeal in Hachette vs. Internet Archive

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Re: The Internet Archive has lost its appeal in Hachette vs. Internet Archive

#401

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The physical object can be passed around without copyright coming into play. Copyright law has special provision for interlibrary loan, and archival copies. There is nothing in the law that supports making a digital copy and and using technical safeguards to transfer it to exactly one person at a time - except licensing under the exclusive rights of the rightsholder. Congress could write something into the law to sup…

Ok I didn't think about the fact that a digital scan of a book is technically a copy. So I guess there isn't a good established law on how to handle that, you're right. I was wondering why in the ruling they were even referring to the scanned books as a copy and it just wasn't clicking in my head. Thanks

There is law - its in the carveout and printed above the copiers in a library that stems from https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/17/108

> The rights of reproduction and distribution under this section extend to the isolated and unrelated reproduction or distribution of a single copy or phonorecord of the same material on separate occasions, but do not extend to cases where the library or archives, or its employee—

> is aware or has substantial reason to believe that it is engaging in the related or concerted reproduction or distribution of multiple copies or phonorecords of the same material, whether made on one occasion or over a period of time, and whether intended for aggregate use by one or more individuals or for separate use by the individual members of a group; or

> engages in the systematic reproduction or distribution of single or multiple copies or phonorecords of material described in subsection (d): Provided, That nothing in this clause prevents a library or archives from participating in interlibrary arrangements that do not have, as their purpose or effect, that the library or archives receiving such copies or phonorecords for distribution does so in such aggregate quantities as to substitute for a subscription to or purchase of such work.

...

> (1) For purposes of this section, during the last 20 years of any term of copyright of a published work, a library or archives, including a nonprofit educational institution that functions as such, may reproduce, distribute, display, or perform in facsimile or digital form a copy or phonorecord of such work, or portions thereof, for purposes of preservation, scholarship, or research, if such library or archives has first determined, on the basis of a reasonable investigation, that none of the conditions set forth in subparagraphs (A), (B), and (C) of paragraph (2) apply.

> (2) No reproduction, distribution, display, or performance is authorized under this subsection if—

> (A) the work is subject to normal commercial exploitation;

> (B) a copy or phonorecord of the work can be obtained at a reasonable price; or

> (C) the copyright owner or its agent provides notice pursuant to regulations promulgated by the Register of Copyrights that either of the conditions set forth in subparagraphs (A) and (B) applies.

---

I believe that the covering of scanned / copied materials by a library are fairly well covered, and that Internet Achieve stepped clearly beyond that definition.

Re: The Internet Archive has lost its appeal in Hachette vs. Internet Archive

#402
If IA still loses after all avenues of appeals are exhauseted, will they be required to delete the archive or will they merely be required to take it offline?

Are private attempts to preserve human knowledge (e.g. IA keeps it offline from public access but continues to archive new works) legal in USA and other major jurisdictions?

Re: The Internet Archive has lost its appeal in Hachette vs. Internet Archive

#403

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

He just created a really terrible 2nd Circuit precedent. He could have avoided that easily. How was this his job?

Not setting a terrible precedent is actually the judge's job.

Re: The Internet Archive has lost its appeal in Hachette vs. Internet Archive

#405

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This wasn't a case of the estates of dead authors trying to hold onto rights. Working authors were actively being harmed by the activities of the IA through the CDL. Working authors were met with refusals to meet to discuss this issue. I don't think that characterization of Kahle is unfair at all. His position was unreasonable, determined to be illegal, and damaging to people who depend on copyright to license their…

How was the CDL hurting working authors? A library bought the book, paying the publisher and the author. The IA scanned the book for digital lending, this digital copy could only be checked out by one person and only when the physical book was not also checked out. I understand the court decided this wasn't okay. That aside, how was it hurting working authors?

I was looking for a clip from a trailer for a film that is available on physical media, streaming, and was in cinemas two years ago.

IA had the whole film online as bluray quality rip.

What's the difference between the IA and Kim Dotcom at that point?

Re: The Internet Archive has lost its appeal in Hachette vs. Internet Archive

#406
post #52

This has been playing out for many years. And it's all because Brewster Kahle decided that an overly broad interpretation of the Internet Archive's mission trumped the rights of authors and publishers, and the laws of the United States. When IA was asked to stop CDL - many times - he continued. The National Writers Union tried to open a dialogue as early as 2010 but was ignored: The Internet Archive says it would rat…

> trumped the rights of authors and publishers,

the ever expanding rights that nobody voted for and that are passed by and for lobbies?

Re: The Internet Archive has lost its appeal in Hachette vs. Internet Archive

#407

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What you describe as lending a digital copy, is making new copies. As a matter of engineering fact, the bytes were copied from one location to another; as a matter of black-letter law, that is making a copy in the sense that it is copyright infringement to do so without a license. That IA 'controlled' it to have only one outstanding copy at a time in hands other than theirs does not make it legal. The carveout saying…

Let's say we have a device that allows to view book pages over Internet without persistently storing it in any tangible medium (like a memory card). I.e. without "fixing" it permanently where "fixing" is defined in 17 US Code 101. And we use it to view books from a remote server. In this case it seems like we are not making a "copy"; we simply let user watch book stored on our server. So this should be legal?

That hypothetical device does not exist, it's not relevant here.

Re: The Internet Archive has lost its appeal in Hachette vs. Internet Archive

#408
post #395

How do AI startups get away with copyright violations? To train AI model they need to download copyrighted works (images, videos, music) into their AI cloud, thus creating a "copy" under US Copyright law. Isn't this outright illegal? There are even datasets, collections of URLs like "common crawl". You cannot legally download them and use without breaking the law. They cannot get away with "fair use" because they are…

This is still an open matter of law. The core issue is the transformative test in fair use. Is the model sufficiently transformative? The question of what, if any, impact OpenAI has on the copyright holder's income is yet to be demonstrated in court. So far, the lawsuits launched by the authors haven't gotten very far. https://www.theguardian.com/books/2024/feb/14/two-openai-boo... https://casetext.com/case/tremblay-…

But when they download images, music or videos from Internet they are making non-transformative copy.

Re: The Internet Archive has lost its appeal in Hachette vs. Internet Archive

#409

How do AI startups get away with copyright violations? To train AI model they need to download copyrighted works (images, videos, music) into their AI cloud, thus creating a "copy" under US Copyright law. Isn't this outright illegal? There are even datasets, collections of URLs like "common crawl". You cannot legally download them and use without breaking the law. They cannot get away with "fair use" because they are…

Because they are not distributing the work, which is how the law currently works. And in case you’re not aware, there are many lawsuits filed that suppose this exact claim: that models are not transformative and are thus breaking copyright law.

It doesn't matter; before training they download the content for training from Internet and thus make a "copy" which might be illegal.

Re: The Internet Archive has lost its appeal in Hachette vs. Internet Archive

#410

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How was the CDL hurting working authors? A library bought the book, paying the publisher and the author. The IA scanned the book for digital lending, this digital copy could only be checked out by one person and only when the physical book was not also checked out. I understand the court decided this wasn't okay. That aside, how was it hurting working authors?

The ruling discusses this starting on page 33. The gist is that they set up a non-transformative service that is substantially equivalent to competing ebook services and CDLs, but unlike those it is not paying the customary price to publishers. It also discusses that there is a very good reason why digital libraries don't typically get to have perpetual rights to a work at the retail (or used) price for a print book.…

>The ruling discusses this starting on page 33. The gist is that they set up a non-transformative service that is substantially equivalent to competing ebook services and CDLs, but unlike those it is not paying the customary price to publishers.

The question was "how is this hurting authors" and your reply is to carry water for publishers?

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