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Anarchy in Sudan has spawned the world’s worst famine in 40 years

economist.com

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Re: Anarchy in Sudan has spawned the world’s worst famine in 40 years

#361

Post by dotancohen »

dagaci wrote: post #130
dotancohen wrote: post #23

[flagged]

Yes the situation in Sudan got worse so that it exceeded the situation in Gaza. It has been deteriorating for many months since April 2023. The collapse of the Sudan is not directly being enflamed directly by any western power compared to the Gaza collapse. So the Sudan conflict is less interesting to us. The Sudan collapse is being enflamed by regional powers where the UAE is funding the Janjaweed (who are officiall…

  > Yes the situation in Sudan got worse so that it exceeded the situation in Gaza. It has been deteriorating for many months since April 2023.
During what time period was the famine in Gaza worse than the famine in Sudan?

Re: Anarchy in Sudan has spawned the world’s worst famine in 40 years

#362

Post by bawolff »

tim333 wrote: post #280
bawolff wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess the problem is nobody wants to "own" countries anymore. Probably for good reason, colonization caused a lot of evil. However if you want to make a country do what you want, you can't just blow it up and then expect them to listen to you. Controlling people requires actually controlling them, and that is icky.

While the old prememant ownership thing has gone out of fashion, maybe we could have something like a 20 year lease where the Brits go in again and bring law and order? This kind of thing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Egyptian_Sudan

I feel like the mandate system of the interwar period is kind of what you are thinking of.

Re: Anarchy in Sudan has spawned the world’s worst famine in 40 years

#363

Post by nradov »

hnpolicestate wrote: post #298

There's this awful semi-famous photograph online of a previous African famine that depicts a man walking past a child who he stole U.N supplied foodstuffs from. This might be naive but what's stopping the U.S, Russia, E.U, China or any capable world power from just air dropping tons of food onto Sudans population centers? You can't tell me Sudan's military has the ability to shoot down advanced aircraft. Am I missing…

The US Air Force Air Mobility Command is the only organization in the world which has a significant number of long-range cargo aircraft and the associated logistics train capable of delivering large amounts of food into contested territory. Russia, the EU, and China have only a tiny fraction of the capability and wouldn't be able to sustain it beyond a temporary symbolic effort. The Russian military is also otherwise occupied at the moment.

While the AMC has the capability it isn't unlimited. They are already stretched thin delivering on other taskings, so if they have to pick up a new humanitarian aid mission then other missions will have to be postponed. Perhaps you should ask the Houthis and Iranians to suspend their terrorist activities in the Middle East in order to reduce the current workload.

Re: Anarchy in Sudan has spawned the world’s worst famine in 40 years

#364

Post by nradov »

jksflkjl3jk3 wrote: post #250
keiferski wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not to excuse the various bad decisions and bungled coups supported by the US during the Cold War, but – had they just "completely stayed out of their business" then the Soviets merely would have intervened (as they actually did in many, many places). In real life, geopolitics is a complex game theory problem. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_interventions_by_the_S...

I suppose the status quo is an inevitable consequence of technology expanding the practical spheres of influence of world powers. It sure would be nice though to have a world without globalization, still full of cultural diversity.

But only the good and inoffensive parts of cultural diversity, right? Not the parts that involve misogyny or patriarchy or homophobia or beheading apostates? When people advocate against globalization and for cultural diversity they're usually only in favor of the most shallow aspects: food, clothes, entertainment, architecture, etc. Not the stuff that actually matters for safety and quality of life in other countries.

And to be clear I'm not advocating for forcibly imposing our cultural values on those other countries. But let's not have an overly romanticized view of cultural diversity.

Re: Anarchy in Sudan has spawned the world’s worst famine in 40 years

#365

Post by shadowgovt »

ericd wrote: post #221
shadowgovt wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's what the world tried with Germany after World War I. There's a reason we stopped believing "just let sovereign nations sort themselves out" is the best approach. It's a pretty selfish reason.

Other countries didn’t exactly stay out of their business - the WW1 allies were demanding unsustainably large war reparations paid in gold , rather than a currency they had control over the supply of. My understanding is that this directly led to their hyperinflation, massive amounts of resentment, and the eventual fall of the Weimar Republic. And everyone knows the rest.

Correct.

But that's my point. "Here's the obligations, sort out how to meet them yourselves" was the old model. It doesn't work out.

And no obligations is impossible in an increasingly interconnected world.

Re: Anarchy in Sudan has spawned the world’s worst famine in 40 years

#366

Post by shadowgovt »

ein0p wrote: post #358
ethbr1 wrote: post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. Parent is ignoring the positive effects of intervention while highlighting the negative. USAID funds USD$50b / year, and the US funds UNICEF to the tune of USD$1.4b / year. Which, among other things, supports the polio vaccination campaign being rolled out in Gaza, to prevent a public health catastrophe and possible resurgence of polio in the Middle East. It's easy to say "Let them eat cake" when one is sitti…

And do remind us, who is funding the bombing of Gaza?

https://afsc.org/gaza-genocide-companies

Kind of an international effort.

Re: Anarchy in Sudan has spawned the world’s worst famine in 40 years

#367

Post by aguaviva »

dotancohen wrote: post #359
diggan wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why was the famine in Gaza so hot when Sudan's famine is two orders of magnitude worse? The proclamation by UN is regarding a specific refugee camp (Zamzam) that doesn't have any governance, not Sudan as a whole. Gaza has governance, so any famine in Gaza would be announced by the government there, not UN, as far as I understand things.

No, what happened was that the UN made much noise about a famine in Gaza without actually declaring a famine. This went on from the beginning of the war in October (before Israeli ground operations began) until about April or maybe May. Then, an investigation was conducted, found no famine, and declared how important it is to prevent famine.

It wasn't "noise", it was perfectly legitimate concern about the intentional deprivation of food and other essential supplies by the occupying forces.

Per the precious words of their so-called Defense Minister:

  “I have ordered a complete siege on the Gaza Strip. There will be no electricity, no food, no fuel, everything is closed,” Gallant says following an assessment at the IDF Southern Command in Beersheba.

  “We are fighting human animals and we are acting accordingly,” he adds.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/defense-ministe...

And of their National Security Minister, Itamar Ben-Gvir:

  As long as Hamas does not release the hostages in its hands - the only thing that needs to enter Gaza are hundreds of tons of explosives from the Air Force, not an ounce of humanitarian aid.
https://x.com/itamarbengvir/status/1714340519487176791

Whether the situation ultimately met the technical definition of "famine" or not by the time Biden successfully twisted Netanyahu's arm to compel the establishment some form of humanitarian aid to flow into the territory -- is basically a matter of splitting hairs.

Let's have some empathy, please.

Re: Anarchy in Sudan has spawned the world’s worst famine in 40 years

#368

Post by ethbr1 »

ein0p wrote: post #358
ethbr1 wrote: post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. Parent is ignoring the positive effects of intervention while highlighting the negative. USAID funds USD$50b / year, and the US funds UNICEF to the tune of USD$1.4b / year. Which, among other things, supports the polio vaccination campaign being rolled out in Gaza, to prevent a public health catastrophe and possible resurgence of polio in the Middle East. It's easy to say "Let them eat cake" when one is sitti…

And do remind us, who is funding the bombing of Gaza?

The right-wing Israeli government?

Seeing as that's who their military reports to.

The US may not be restraining them sufficiently, inasmuch as any country can another, but it's kind of a weird question.

Israeli is more than capable of bombing Gaza into the stone age even absent US military aid.

The broader finger pointing should be that, as always, nobody actually cares about the Palestinians.

The West doesn't care, because Israel. The East doesn't care, because why would they? And the Middle East doesn't care, because as much as they trumpet the Palestinian cause to boost domestic popularity, none of them are actually willing to suffer consequences for the benefit of Palestinians.

Which leaves... the Houthis and Iran, neither of which are very linked to the global economic network at this point, and so have little to lose.

Re: Anarchy in Sudan has spawned the world’s worst famine in 40 years

#369

Post by ericd »

shadowgovt wrote: post #365
ericd wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Other countries didn’t exactly stay out of their business - the WW1 allies were demanding unsustainably large war reparations paid in gold , rather than a currency they had control over the supply of. My understanding is that this directly led to their hyperinflation, massive amounts of resentment, and the eventual fall of the Weimar Republic. And everyone knows the rest.

Correct. But that's my point. "Here's the obligations, sort out how to meet them yourselves" was the old model. It doesn't work out. And no obligations is impossible in an increasingly interconnected world.

Ah I see, you meant that the other governments weren't being considerate of the consequences of selfish demands and it ended badly.

Re: Anarchy in Sudan has spawned the world’s worst famine in 40 years

#370

Post by shadowgovt »

ericd wrote: post #369
shadowgovt wrote: post #365

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Correct. But that's my point. "Here's the obligations, sort out how to meet them yourselves" was the old model. It doesn't work out. And no obligations is impossible in an increasingly interconnected world.

Ah I see, you meant that the other governments weren't being considerate of the consequences of selfish demands and it ended badly.

Right. *let whatever emerges from the chaos develop on its own" is an opportunity that strongmen have exploited over and over again.
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