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Anarchy in Sudan has spawned the world’s worst famine in 40 years

economist.com

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Re: Anarchy in Sudan has spawned the world’s worst famine in 40 years

#181

Post by begueradj »

boomboomsubban wrote: post #68

>It is official: for only the third time in the past 20 years, the un has declared a full-blown famine. Looking into this, it's because the UN will only declare a famine if there's no functioning government. If there is one, they have the government declare a famine. Presumably that's why the UN declared a famine at the refugee camp, not the country or region. This story from last month discusses this aspect. https:/…

The article you linked to says famine was declared in Sudan on 2017. But the situation on 2017 is different from nowadays (to keep it short, at least on 2017, Sudan had a president, and that means a lot in such a country)

Re: Anarchy in Sudan has spawned the world’s worst famine in 40 years

#182

Post by shadowgovt »

jksflkjl3jk3 wrote: post #151
throwaway3521 wrote: post #15

At which point we admit that current approaches to helping these countries does nothing and we reach out for other, radical, approaches and ideas?

How about going in the other direction? Completely stay out of their business and let whatever emerges from the chaos develop on its own? Central planning of societies doesn't have a good track record, especially when there are competing external interests. Look at the horrific consequences of the American meddling in geopolitics of the third world over the last 100 years. The CIA and war industry is responsible for…

That's what the world tried with Germany after World War I.

There's a reason we stopped believing "just let sovereign nations sort themselves out" is the best approach. It's a pretty selfish reason.

Re: Anarchy in Sudan has spawned the world’s worst famine in 40 years

#183

Post by Earw0rm »

mrweasel wrote: post #152
throwaway3521 wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bring back colonization for limited amount of time ie 50years. During that time establish government, educational, civil structures and start the economy. Re-educate the society, instill the values of high-trust society. Pull out of the country gradually replacing foreigners with local population. The name 'colonization' might evoke some sentiments, but we can call this some other name.

Wasn't that basically what Ian Smith suggested for Rhodesia? His argument was that the native Africans didn't have the education level or the experience required to run a "civil" society. So the white Rhodesians should do it for a number of years. I believe his target was the late 1980s, after which everyone would have the same rights. Hard to say if it would have worked, Ian Smiths comments was mostly made after Mug…

That is, to some extent, what happened in South Africa. Of course, the whites didn't give power over easily, and the road since has not been smooth. There's no reason to think the Rhodesians would have handed it over any easier, when the time came.

South Africa today is simultaneously a troubled place and yet doing well compared to many of its peers. Violent crime is very high, for example, but similar to 19th/early 20th century USA.

Re: Anarchy in Sudan has spawned the world’s worst famine in 40 years

#184

Post by Eumenes »

alephnerd wrote: post #21
throwaway3521 wrote: post #15

At which point we admit that current approaches to helping these countries does nothing and we reach out for other, radical, approaches and ideas?

Sudan is in a civil war that is being used as a proxy war by Iran, UAE, Egypt, Saudi, Ethiopia, and other regional states is NOT caused by issues with donors

Can't forget Russia and the US/NATO in that group of swell nation-states

Re: Anarchy in Sudan has spawned the world’s worst famine in 40 years

#185

Post by AdrianB1 »

jksflkjl3jk3 wrote: post #151
throwaway3521 wrote: post #15

At which point we admit that current approaches to helping these countries does nothing and we reach out for other, radical, approaches and ideas?

How about going in the other direction? Completely stay out of their business and let whatever emerges from the chaos develop on its own? Central planning of societies doesn't have a good track record, especially when there are competing external interests. Look at the horrific consequences of the American meddling in geopolitics of the third world over the last 100 years. The CIA and war industry is responsible for…

This is an excellent option if you are willing to accept hundreds of millions of people will die in the process and that it will take a hundred years or more for that to happen. Development does not happen overnight and it takes a toll.

That being said, my impression is that the people leaning left in politics are strongly against non-interventionism. This means it will become a political issue in the countries that can help (or intervene), especially because most of these countries have a very strong left leaning. Sudan will become ammunition in electoral fights in elections, politics will win and interventions will happen just because of that, not because the interventionists care in any way about people of Sudan, they are just simple pawns on their chess board.

Re: Anarchy in Sudan has spawned the world’s worst famine in 40 years

#186

Post by urduntupu »

jksflkjl3jk3 wrote: post #151
throwaway3521 wrote: post #15

At which point we admit that current approaches to helping these countries does nothing and we reach out for other, radical, approaches and ideas?

How about going in the other direction? Completely stay out of their business and let whatever emerges from the chaos develop on its own? Central planning of societies doesn't have a good track record, especially when there are competing external interests. Look at the horrific consequences of the American meddling in geopolitics of the third world over the last 100 years. The CIA and war industry is responsible for…

[dead]

Re: Anarchy in Sudan has spawned the world’s worst famine in 40 years

#187

Post by feedforward »

jajko wrote: post #166
crop_rotation wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Central planning has a very good record in countries like China/South Korea. Non central social changes are just very very slow.

Maybe but its doesn't work in democracies well. Main reason why EU won't ever compete with US economically, while being also very rich and actually more populous. You should also compare it to situation where those countries wouldn't be centrally planned. Not so possible without time machine, so let's leave out measuring of efficiency of such systems. Ie when in Eastern Europe communism and central planning failed an…

With regards to central planning, neither China nor the US is fully in or out of it.

China still has Five Year Plans and some central planning, but Deng Xioping took steps away from it in the 1980s.

There's a mythology the US has no central planning, but it has had a lot of central planning since 1932 and certainly since 1941. Market makers watch for the presidentially nominated Powell to come out and announce the fed funds rate for our fiat currency, and the economy either speeds up or slows down in response. We are typing on a network the government paid BBN and other companies to create, on chips descended from the Fairchild chips that Air Force contracts funded. For various historical reasons, much of the central planning in the US is done via its very well funded military (then well funded military contractors pay think tanks and politicians to go out and say they're not so well funded)

Re: Anarchy in Sudan has spawned the world’s worst famine in 40 years

#188

Post by distances »

bogle wrote: post #57
rmbyrro wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every single piece of land on Earth has been attacked and colonized at least once. Why have some peoples managed to do well and others so bad? I think there's something more to learn.

[flagged]

Russia continues to be one of the largest colonial empires in history.

Re: Anarchy in Sudan has spawned the world’s worst famine in 40 years

#189

Post by AdrianB1 »

eej71 wrote: post #128
throwaway3521 wrote: post #15

At which point we admit that current approaches to helping these countries does nothing and we reach out for other, radical, approaches and ideas?

You suggestion below is getting downvoted which isn't that surprising given the general tilt of HN. But I think there is a related question that's a bit better to ask. What are the social, political, cultural and intellectual preconditions of a free society? What ideals and values does the culture need to hold before you can have a stable government that in a general way - values liberty for its citizens? While I'd l…

I am confused. In the past decades free society is not the direction of the governments, things like free speech are regressing a lot in Anglophone countries (UK, Canada, Australia, New Zeeland) and even Germany. Are you talking about free society in terms of classical liberalism or modern governments that look more like China? Because Europe and down under are going in the direction of China, not freedom. So what do you want to see in Sudan, a China-like "democracy" or an US-style with 1st, 2nd and 4th amendments?

Re: Anarchy in Sudan has spawned the world’s worst famine in 40 years

#190

Post by 185504a9 »

throwaway3521 wrote: post #102
throwaway3521 wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bring back colonization for limited amount of time ie 50years. During that time establish government, educational, civil structures and start the economy. Re-educate the society, instill the values of high-trust society. Pull out of the country gradually replacing foreigners with local population. The name 'colonization' might evoke some sentiments, but we can call this some other name.

Just for a context here: I actually live in almost-third-world country. Thankfully no famine and loss of live but extremely dysfunctional state and society and with educational system collapsing - probably no future. My countrymen, we, could not govern ourselves. I wish this country was occupied and someone built better society!

Not even pretending to make a rational reply here, but I've seen a lot of despicable stuff on the internet and this comment may be the one that made me the angriest. I really hope this is some sort of satire because my blood is about to evaporate. Jesus fucking Christ
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