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Anarchy in Sudan has spawned the world’s worst famine in 40 years

economist.com

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Re: Anarchy in Sudan has spawned the world’s worst famine in 40 years

#221

Post by ericd »

shadowgovt wrote: post #182
jksflkjl3jk3 wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How about going in the other direction? Completely stay out of their business and let whatever emerges from the chaos develop on its own? Central planning of societies doesn't have a good track record, especially when there are competing external interests. Look at the horrific consequences of the American meddling in geopolitics of the third world over the last 100 years. The CIA and war industry is responsible for…

That's what the world tried with Germany after World War I. There's a reason we stopped believing "just let sovereign nations sort themselves out" is the best approach. It's a pretty selfish reason.

Other countries didn’t exactly stay out of their business - the WW1 allies were demanding unsustainably large war reparations paid in gold, rather than a currency they had control over the supply of. My understanding is that this directly led to their hyperinflation, massive amounts of resentment, and the eventual fall of the Weimar Republic. And everyone knows the rest.

Re: Anarchy in Sudan has spawned the world’s worst famine in 40 years

#222

Post by bawolff »

JohnMakin wrote: post #172

Still cannot get the images of the Ethiopian famine out of my head - truly horrific stuff. I’ll let people smarter and more powerful than me debate what could/should be done - I’d personally hazard a guess nothing short of military intervention can stop something like this but that has its whole slew of unintended side effects. It seems like there are enough resources in the world to prevent things like this, at leas…

I guess the problem is nobody wants to "own" countries anymore. Probably for good reason, colonization caused a lot of evil. However if you want to make a country do what you want, you can't just blow it up and then expect them to listen to you. Controlling people requires actually controlling them, and that is icky.

Re: Anarchy in Sudan has spawned the world’s worst famine in 40 years

#223

Post by tazu »

185504a9 wrote: post #190
throwaway3521 wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just for a context here: I actually live in almost-third-world country. Thankfully no famine and loss of live but extremely dysfunctional state and society and with educational system collapsing - probably no future. My countrymen, we, could not govern ourselves. I wish this country was occupied and someone built better society!

Not even pretending to make a rational reply here, but I've seen a lot of despicable stuff on the internet and this comment may be the one that made me the angriest. I really hope this is some sort of satire because my blood is about to evaporate. Jesus fucking Christ

You should spend a few years in a third world country. Your righteous liberal rage will evaporate as quickly as your feeling of safety (which you take for granted).

Re: Anarchy in Sudan has spawned the world’s worst famine in 40 years

#224

Post by yunohn »

jksflkjl3jk3 wrote: post #151
throwaway3521 wrote: post #15

At which point we admit that current approaches to helping these countries does nothing and we reach out for other, radical, approaches and ideas?

How about going in the other direction? Completely stay out of their business and let whatever emerges from the chaos develop on its own? Central planning of societies doesn't have a good track record, especially when there are competing external interests. Look at the horrific consequences of the American meddling in geopolitics of the third world over the last 100 years. The CIA and war industry is responsible for…

> Completely stay out of their business and let whatever emerges from the chaos develop on its own?

This simply never happens. The developed world is constantly putting its nose into everyone else’s business, and through globalization and industrialization, there’s nothing on this world that the Western economy doesn’t touch.

Re: Anarchy in Sudan has spawned the world’s worst famine in 40 years

#225

Post by bawolff »

cen4 wrote: post #191
jksflkjl3jk3 wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How about going in the other direction? Completely stay out of their business and let whatever emerges from the chaos develop on its own? Central planning of societies doesn't have a good track record, especially when there are competing external interests. Look at the horrific consequences of the American meddling in geopolitics of the third world over the last 100 years. The CIA and war industry is responsible for…

"Security" as provided by the Pentagon/MIL complex is an evolution of what the Brits used to do to maintain order across the Empire. After the Empire fell, the Americans basically cut and paste that policy, where the goal is mainly about protecting the flows of capital and trade. Colonial legacy and thinking needs a total reboot. Will die out naturally as boomers trained in that kind of thinking pre-globalization die…

> Will die out naturally as boomers trained in that kind of thinking pre-globalization die out.

I don't think it will. There will always be powerful people who want to maintain that power, and wannabe powerful people who want to get that power.

So long as that way of thinking leads to power, there will be people who will follow it.

The problem is not that people are tainted by colonial thinking - its that humans are tainted by ambition.

Re: Anarchy in Sudan has spawned the world’s worst famine in 40 years

#226

Post by crop_rotation »

yorwba wrote: post #218
crop_rotation wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Central planning has a very good record in countries like China/South Korea. Non central social changes are just very very slow.

Central planning has an extremely bad record in China, especially when it comes to famine. During the Great Leap forward, the central planners demanded the implementation of new Lysenkoist farming practices that were reportedly a great success and on track to deliver a record harvest. The central planners then dispensed generous daily rations from the granaries, so that everyone could eat their fill, causing farmers…

I have mentioned this elsewhere as well, no kind of planning saves one from bad economic policy. Post Deng China has a very very good record of bringing prosperity (and China still central planning).

Re: Anarchy in Sudan has spawned the world’s worst famine in 40 years

#227

Post by NewJazz »

kibwen wrote: post #148
hggh wrote: post #105

That's not anarchy, obviously

It may not be anarchism as professed by anarchists (which is itself a broad and fractious array of philosophies generally having to do with abolishing involuntary hierarchies, related to classical libertarianism), but it is a form of anarchy, at least as it is popularly understood. Terminology fails here; at this point any serious anarchists need to come to grips with the fact that this sort of "chaotic anarchy" is w…

On the contrary, the article's use of the word is what is pointless.

At no point, besides the title, does the article make mention of anarchy or chaos. Rather, the article pretty clearly states that the famine is a result of a civil war between the government and a paramilitary group that was previously given weapons by the government.

Liberal politicians (and less commonly journalists) like to latch onto the words anarchy and chaos to fear monger and dramatize, but often the so-called anarchy and chaos they call out is a direct result of their own ruthless attempts to keep order.

Re: Anarchy in Sudan has spawned the world’s worst famine in 40 years

#228

Post by crop_rotation »

giantg2 wrote: post #208
crop_rotation wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Central planning has a very good record in countries like China/South Korea. Non central social changes are just very very slow.

I'm not sure China is a good example of it working, unless you limit it to the past couple decades and ignore the human rights issues. South Korea may be a decent example, but also has some possible indirect negative effects, given all the protests, urban/rural divide, and social/birthrate issues. Sure they have the whole not starving thing handled, but so do the majority of countries regardless of central planning o…

Do you realise you are commenting in the context of a massive famine and millions of lives lost? All the countries in Africa and almost any non developed country will gladly take post Mao Chinese leadership and there current status quo over their current lives.

Human rights don't come before people have a certain dignity to live. Trying to preach human rights to a starving population is just .....

Re: Anarchy in Sudan has spawned the world’s worst famine in 40 years

#229

Post by crop_rotation »

logicchains wrote: post #209
crop_rotation wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Central planning has a very good record in countries like China/South Korea. Non central social changes are just very very slow.

>Central planning has a very good record in countries like China It's got a very terrible track record in China; the government caused tens of millions of its own people to starve to death, and set the economic development back decades. The GDP per capita in Taiwan is more than double that of China currently, but both started at a similar position. If China had had a similar political system to Taiwan, its people's s…

> If China had had a similar political system to Taiwan, its people's standard of living would be much better.

This is just absurd. Taiwan's entire economy is TSMC + some small things. Copying political systems doesn't get you per capita standard of living.

Yes Mao's China did stupid things but post Mao China has done well economically atleast. They had an enviable job of bringing so many people out of extreme poverty and have done well.

Re: Anarchy in Sudan has spawned the world’s worst famine in 40 years

#230

Post by bawolff »

AdrianB1 wrote: post #213
willyt wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you mean by free speech is regressing in anglophone countries? That seems like a weird opinion to have? Do you have a particular example?

Random: https://nypost.com/2024/06/29/world-news/german-woman-given-... https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c15gn0lq7p5o (Misogyny to be treated as extremism by UK government) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/An_Act_to_amend_the_Canadian_H... One can easily find examples in all countries. These countries do not have a free speech right in their Constitutions, for example, and no plans to include it.

Canada does indeed have free speech (expression) in its constitution.

There are limits to speech, but that is true in every country, including the USA (if you dont believe me, try yelling "i have a bomb" in an american airport and see what happens next)

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