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Thoughts on the Durov Arrest

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Re: Thoughts on the Durov Arrest

#111

Post by [deleted] »

willsoon wrote: post #40
cja wrote: post #27

Why are so many people taking this at face value? There's a war going on and the man in charge of the communications system for one side flew to try to meet his leader and then flew to an enemy country where there was a warrant for his arrest. I'm not saying the French aren't serious about the charges they've published but they're hardly the main point. There's plenty in the media about the use of Telegram by the the…

1. Is encryption itself a crime? 2. Presumably Durov was in a meeting with Putin. 2. 1. But there is no war, the war against Ukraine is not a war in legal terms. 2. 2. And there is no charge of meeting with the enemy or anything like that. 2.3. So you are saying that we are talking about the charges in vain, because the political underground is obvious. 2.4. Yes, you are right, that is why we are talking about the ch…

[deleted]

Re: Thoughts on the Durov Arrest

#112

Post by guappa »

fvdessen wrote: post #105
guappa wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There have been several arrests of drug dealers using whatsapp over the years. Do you have any official source that criminals on telegram are more? Or is it just a feeling you have?

If I open telegram and go to ‘find people nearby’ I am presented with a long list of drug dealers and prostitutes advertising their services. So they not only help with communication, they help with advertising, and since this is all public, they can’t really say they’re not aware

Those are just fake account scammers, you won't be able to buy sex or drugs from any of them. And they get banned all the time.

Do you have a source or no?

Re: Thoughts on the Durov Arrest

#113

Post by fvdessen »

tptacek wrote: post #3

This analysis leaves out the fact that Pavel Durov is, with Telegram, in approximately the same position Ladar Levison was with Lavabit. Unlike Meredith Whitaker, Durov actually is in a position to furnish documents to the French government, where he has citizenship. He's in that position because he has repeatedly made deliberate product decisions, to the bafflement of cryptographers around the world, to keep himself…

It’s worse than that, the ‘find people nearby’ feature is a public drug and prostitution advertising billboard with zero moderation and has been for years. They’re in a closer position to silkroad than lavabit

Re: Thoughts on the Durov Arrest

#114

Post by sersi »

Reading the charges, one jump to my mind as being scary:

"Importation d'un moyen de cryptologie n'assurant pas exclusivement des fonctions d'authentification ou de contrôle d'intégrité sans déclaration préalable."

- Import of a cryptographic mean that does not exclusively perform authentication or integrity control functions without prior declaration.

This to me is a deeply disturbing charge, would that mean that using full disk encryption I'd be liable to be charged with that? Did the maintainers of LUKS do a prior declaration? If not are they likely to be charged if they ever travel to France?

After all, I can fully imagine a server being seized in a data center being encrypted with LUKS. In that case, is it the fault of the maintainers?

Re: Thoughts on the Durov Arrest

#115

Post by higgsbozo »

More and more proof is coming out that Pavel Durov has secretly traveled to Russia more than 60 times between 2014 to 2021. If so, it's close to impossible that he does not cooperate with RU security services. It's either co-operation or he'd be kaput.

Furthermore, after his failure with his crypto project in the United States, he returned to his homeland, and the Kremlin immediately "unblocked" Telegram. The next day, Durov promised investors to pay off the debts. Quite a coincidence.

Telegram also has taken down various channels from one side of the global conflict and not others. For example, he took down the channel of Iranians protesting against the dictatorship in 2017, but he refuses to take down the channels that sell child *pornography, drug$, human trafficking, or Ru$$ians posting videos of beheading Ukrainian POWs, etc.

This whole situation is really complicated, to say the least. Freedom of speech is paramount, but in times of global information warfare, it's not really possible to stay neutral as the owner of the top communication platform. Especially given the horrific stuff that’s being done on this platform.

He says he is neutral, but the facts indicate that it's not quite true. And it’s understandable from the aspect that his life is probably at risk if he doesn’t cooperate. So, it seems he's just trying to navigate a delicate balance, maneuvering between conflicting pressures. Prison is not great, even if it’s French, but Europe is less likely to give him novichok tea, so he apparently chose to work with the other side.

Re: Thoughts on the Durov Arrest

#116

Post by jen20 »

pyeri wrote: post #104
uxhacker wrote: post #4

Is this an unintentional war by Europe on facebook, signal, etc? What will the outcome be? Will these services leave Europe? Will Europe change the rules ?

[flagged]

> UK recently elected far-left parties

What in the everliving fuck are you talking about?

Re: Thoughts on the Durov Arrest

#117

Post by medo-bear »

lispm wrote: post #101
medo-bear wrote: post #56

> where he has citizenship Durov is being persecuted for his role as a CEO of Telegram. Telegram is a legal entity that has nothing to do with France

> Telegram is a legal entity that has nothing to do with France That's obviously false. Telegram is providing services to French and EU citizens.

Or the EU and France allowed its citizens to gain services from a foreign company, Telegram, and did nothing to stop them? Russia at least tried to block them.

Re: Thoughts on the Durov Arrest

#118

Post by boudin »

tptacek wrote: post #69
boudin wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In a way ot reminds me of the Phantom Secure story. If you are suspected to purpusefully facilitate crime, you can be held responsible. This seems to be true as well in the US. In the phantom secure story the intent was crystal clear. In the Telegram case it seems that the refusal to cooperate with investigations cast enough doubts to arrest the CEO and put him in similar shoes. https://www.fbi.gov/news/stories/phant…

It's so much worse than that (at least under US law, but I assume French law, which has fewer speech and evidentiary protections, is worse still). By putting himself in the position where he was clearly and straightforwardly able to furnish assistance to criminal investigations, he likely acquired some form of accomplice liability (or whatever equivalent they have in France) as soon as he refused to comply with a law…

That's what I meant, the lack of cooperation is what shows the lack of intent, in the end. I do not understand why this is turned around a "freedom of speech" thing as there is nothing about censoring speech in the first place, this all about criminal activity happening on the platform and the responsibility of the business behind the platform.

Re: Thoughts on the Durov Arrest

#119

Post by hakdht »

cja wrote: post #27

Why are so many people taking this at face value? There's a war going on and the man in charge of the communications system for one side flew to try to meet his leader and then flew to an enemy country where there was a warrant for his arrest. I'm not saying the French aren't serious about the charges they've published but they're hardly the main point. There's plenty in the media about the use of Telegram by the the…

Yes, the situation is strange. According to many sources the following is true:

1) Russia uses Telegram for military communications.

2) Russian military bloggers use Telegram for detailed updates, including graphic pictures.

3) Ukrainian military bloggers do the same.

4) Russian mercenaries use Telegram in former French colonies in Africa.

France may want to shut down 4), but I would think that Western intelligence services would not want to shut down the uses in the Ukraine conflict because they can track everything. So maybe they just want a better tracking API.

They would want to shut it down in preparation for a large Middle East war though. In that case, they'd prefer hand picked CNN embedded journalists and not have graphic pictures appear freely.

Lavabit was mentioned here. Perhaps Durov should just announce to shut down Telegram and find out if certain forces beg him to continue the service.

Re: Thoughts on the Durov Arrest

#120

Post by agubelu »

willsoon wrote: post #29
pjerem wrote: post #12

> What it means is that European states are going to try to extraterritorially dictate to foreign companies what content those companies can and cannot host on foreign-based webservers It looks like the author failed to grab that Durov asked for the French nationality and therefore is a French citizen who must comply to French law. > Telegram is not the only company in the world which has a social media platform used…

>Legal request A legal request comes from a legal authority: a judge. >Cooperating with law enforcement Law Enforcement (that's the police, right?) are not judges and are not authorised to rule on legal matters. Hate has not logic. So you are trying to cover the whole spectrum of things to ensure your belief that Durov is being legally detained. Sorry for editing instead of answering. Reddit says I "post too fast".

A legal authority (judge) issues a legal request, which must be complied with to the best of your ability. If you don't comply, you're acting unlawfully and thus you're detained by law enforcement (police).

It's a pretty straightforward logic.

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