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Thoughts on the Durov Arrest

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Re: Thoughts on the Durov Arrest

#31

Post by pjerem »

willsoon wrote: post #29
pjerem wrote: post #12

> What it means is that European states are going to try to extraterritorially dictate to foreign companies what content those companies can and cannot host on foreign-based webservers It looks like the author failed to grab that Durov asked for the French nationality and therefore is a French citizen who must comply to French law. > Telegram is not the only company in the world which has a social media platform used…

>Legal request A legal request comes from a legal authority: a judge. >Cooperating with law enforcement Law Enforcement (that's the police, right?) are not judges and are not authorised to rule on legal matters. Hate has not logic. So you are trying to cover the whole spectrum of things to ensure your belief that Durov is being legally detained. Sorry for editing instead of answering. Reddit says I "post too fast".

What logic ? Where is the hate ?

Re: Thoughts on the Durov Arrest

#32

Post by NayamAmarshe »

danpalmer wrote: post #21
newaccount74 wrote: post #16

This is quite a one-sided take. What makes Telegram unique is: 1) They have access to almost all the content 2) They try to use arguments about jurisdiction to avoid helping law enforcement with lawful requests All the other messaging platforms (WhatsApp, Signal, iMessage) have started to use end-to-end encryption to avoid being in this position in the first place. But they also comply with law enforcement and share…

I found it interesting to read that their approach is supposedly to split encryption keys across jurisdictions. It sounds like they believe that they should therefore not be able to be compelled to reveal any plaintext because the keys are not in the jurisdiction asking for data, but as far as I can tell this is obviously rubbish, because a computer is not subject to the law, an individual is, and in this case an ind…

> that there aren't really technical blockers to E2E encryption anymore

There are several disadvantages, and Telegram would lose its key features:

1. Cloud Sync

2. Instant Multi-device login

3. The ability to create large group chats, like thousands or hundreds of thousands of people in a single place.

4. Sending files up to 4GB.

Re: Thoughts on the Durov Arrest

#34

Post by mjevans »

danpalmer wrote: post #21
newaccount74 wrote: post #16

This is quite a one-sided take. What makes Telegram unique is: 1) They have access to almost all the content 2) They try to use arguments about jurisdiction to avoid helping law enforcement with lawful requests All the other messaging platforms (WhatsApp, Signal, iMessage) have started to use end-to-end encryption to avoid being in this position in the first place. But they also comply with law enforcement and share…

I found it interesting to read that their approach is supposedly to split encryption keys across jurisdictions. It sounds like they believe that they should therefore not be able to be compelled to reveal any plaintext because the keys are not in the jurisdiction asking for data, but as far as I can tell this is obviously rubbish, because a computer is not subject to the law, an individual is, and in this case an ind…

Usually it's a power or money profit motive. Just think what tasty things some large corporation or government could do with that data. They could sell ads! Or hold dissidents hostage. All sorts of things.

Re: Thoughts on the Durov Arrest

#35

Post by cperciva »

tptacek wrote: post #24
daliusd wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IMHO second answer does not hold water. If you will end up in situation where you are tortured they will torture you until you will you say how to add the backdoor.

His point is that he can't backdoor it: you can read the code before you install it. I'd go further, and say that this is true of anything end-to-end encrypted, open-source or not, because it's not 2002 anymore and reversing ordinary client software is table stakes. (I'd still rather run something open source, ceteris paribus).

Reversing ordinary client software is table stakes, sure. I'm not so sure about reversing client software which has a deliberately hidden backdoor. (You can hide a backdoor in source code too, of course, but I think it's easier to hide one in a binary because you could e.g. ensure that a buffer overflow overwrites cryptographic keys, where a C compiler would have the freedom to change the memory layout.)

Re: Thoughts on the Durov Arrest

#36

Post by sofixa »

cja wrote: post #27

Why are so many people taking this at face value? There's a war going on and the man in charge of the communications system for one side flew to try to meet his leader and then flew to an enemy country where there was a warrant for his arrest. I'm not saying the French aren't serious about the charges they've published but they're hardly the main point. There's plenty in the media about the use of Telegram by the the…

I see this argument a lot, but it falls apart when you realise Ukraine also extensively uses Telegram. Maybe not for official state business (Zelenskyy chatting with his intelligence chief), but many times officials communicate with civilians via Telegram channels.

Re: Thoughts on the Durov Arrest

#37

Post by sjdhdhdj »

pjerem wrote: post #19
sjdhdhdj wrote: post #10

[flagged]

Except Google is taking down any illegal data they are asked to takedown or to give to law enforcement. Durov is not arrested to have hosted illegal content but to deliberately have not do anything against it when asked to. If you did something illegal via Gmail and the law enforcement asked for your mails to Google, they’d give them. Telegram voluntarily did not. Note that Durov/Telegram could have been easily prote…

No they stay up for weeks after dozens of reports. I suspect the ads are only taken off once the stolen credit card used in AdWords gets declined.

Re: Thoughts on the Durov Arrest

#39

Post by cperciva »

daliusd wrote: post #23
cperciva wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed. Two of the more common questions I get with Tarsnap are Q. How do I know that Tarsnap is secure? A. Read the source code. Q. Ok, but you're really smart, what's stopping you from putting in a backdoor and hiding it really well? A. I don't want to get tortured, and ensuring that I can't decrypt your data protects *me*.

IMHO second answer does not hold water. If you will end up in situation where you are tortured they will torture you until you will you say how to add the backdoor.

I could be coerced into adding a back door in future versions of Tarsnap, yes.

But I can't be coerced into adding a backdoor into past versions of Tarsnap, because I don't have a time machine.

Re: Thoughts on the Durov Arrest

#40

Post by willsoon »

cja wrote: post #27

Why are so many people taking this at face value? There's a war going on and the man in charge of the communications system for one side flew to try to meet his leader and then flew to an enemy country where there was a warrant for his arrest. I'm not saying the French aren't serious about the charges they've published but they're hardly the main point. There's plenty in the media about the use of Telegram by the the…

1. Is encryption itself a crime?

2. Presumably Durov was in a meeting with Putin.

2. 1. But there is no war, the war against Ukraine is not a war in legal terms.

2. 2. And there is no charge of meeting with the enemy or anything like that.

2.3. So you are saying that we are talking about the charges in vain, because the political underground is obvious.

2.4. Yes, you are right, that is why we are talking about the charges.

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