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Thoughts on the Durov Arrest

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Re: Thoughts on the Durov Arrest

#81

Post by ashellunts »

pjerem wrote: post #12

> What it means is that European states are going to try to extraterritorially dictate to foreign companies what content those companies can and cannot host on foreign-based webservers It looks like the author failed to grab that Durov asked for the French nationality and therefore is a French citizen who must comply to French law. > Telegram is not the only company in the world which has a social media platform used…

From telegram privacy policy:

>If Telegram receives a court order that confirms you're a terror suspect, we may disclose your IP address and phone number to the relevant authorities. So far, this has never happened. When it does, we will include it in a semiannual transparency report published at: https://t.me/transparency.

Re: Thoughts on the Durov Arrest

#82

Post by repelsteeltje »

hackcasual wrote: post #7

Trying to understand his legal situation by analogizing with US law understanding strikes me as some real Dunning-Kruegering. Surely someone like Preston Byrne has someone he can reach out to to get a better understanding of the actual French legal situation Durov is in.

+1.

Reading the article I was baffled to see all this talk about section 230 of communication and decency act. Telegram moved from Russia to Dubai and Durov was arrested in France.

Using the US hammer on a foreign nail gives vibes of Team America - World Police parody.

Re: Thoughts on the Durov Arrest

#83

Post by cja »

willsoon wrote: post #40
cja wrote: post #27

Why are so many people taking this at face value? There's a war going on and the man in charge of the communications system for one side flew to try to meet his leader and then flew to an enemy country where there was a warrant for his arrest. I'm not saying the French aren't serious about the charges they've published but they're hardly the main point. There's plenty in the media about the use of Telegram by the the…

1. Is encryption itself a crime? 2. Presumably Durov was in a meeting with Putin. 2. 1. But there is no war, the war against Ukraine is not a war in legal terms. 2. 2. And there is no charge of meeting with the enemy or anything like that. 2.3. So you are saying that we are talking about the charges in vain, because the political underground is obvious. 2.4. Yes, you are right, that is why we are talking about the ch…

Imagine that Ukraine used a US messaging system for military comms. The head of that company visits Serbia (a country friendly to Russia) and is arrested on some charges that you don't agree with. Will you debate the charges or the consequences for Ukraine?

Maybe it's because I live very close to Russia and most of the people here probably don't think about the war every day, but the strategic reality of this situation makes all these privacy arguments so trivial.

I need to see this happen to someone other than Durov to consider that it's not about the war. While it's only Durov then I really don't think he's discussing privacy issues with the French - they are discussing his access to Telegram's systems and his ability and willingness to give that to the allies of Ukraine. Likewise in Russia they are not discussing the privacy issues, they are trying to lock Durov out Telegram's systems and the military and intelligence services are working on alternative ways to communicate, and meanwhile the effectiveness on the battlefield of the Russian army is compromised.

Re: Thoughts on the Durov Arrest

#84

Post by cedws »

mytailorisrich wrote: post #77
akira2501 wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the idea of Durov being arrested I don't know him but the idea that an individual CEO would be handled in this way seems extreme and calls into question the actual motives of the French government. > For all we know he could have been completely complicit. I guess he could be an international terrorist drug dealing pimp. > Hold your horses people. The French governments actions and communication on the subject has…

It's not for the government to communicate, and criminal investigations are secret in France. So prosecutors don't have to make any public statements or release any documents (and in fact they shouldn't) but in such high profile cases they are likely to make a general statement to placate the media.

Additionally, Durov being Russian may complicate things. Western intelligence may have information about him that cannot be released.

Re: Thoughts on the Durov Arrest

#85

Post by jiiam »

tptacek wrote: post #63
intunderflow wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As another HN user pointed out Telegram does not store messages in plaintext: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41348228

That user seems to be misinformed, and appears to be discussing client-server encryption, not end-to-end encryption. That's unsurprising, because, among the many decisions Durov has made that have baffled cryptographers, attempting to confuse users about the implications of E2E vs. client-server encryption is one of the most notorious.

Just to be clear, are you saying that his claim

> Telegram uses the MTProto 2.0 Cloud algorithm for non-secret chats[1][2].

> In fact, it uses a split-key encryption system and the servers are all stored in multiple jurisdictions. So even Telegram employees can't decrypt the chats, because you'd need to compromise all the servers at the same time.

is false? If so can you cite a source? (The claim is just a summary of the FAQ https://www.telegram.org/faq#q-do-you-process-data-requests)

Re: Thoughts on the Durov Arrest

#86

Post by Timber-6539 »

tptacek wrote: post #3

This analysis leaves out the fact that Pavel Durov is, with Telegram, in approximately the same position Ladar Levison was with Lavabit. Unlike Meredith Whitaker, Durov actually is in a position to furnish documents to the French government, where he has citizenship. He's in that position because he has repeatedly made deliberate product decisions, to the bafflement of cryptographers around the world, to keep himself…

If the data that the French government wanted was in plaintext they wouldn't need to use the $5 wrench. Also not sure why E2EE is the answer here, governments can pass laws as we have seen with the UK to water the encryption down.

Re: Thoughts on the Durov Arrest

#87

Post by worthless-trash »

cperciva wrote: post #39
daliusd wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IMHO second answer does not hold water. If you will end up in situation where you are tortured they will torture you until you will you say how to add the backdoor.

I could be coerced into adding a back door in future versions of Tarsnap, yes. But I can't be coerced into adding a backdoor into past versions of Tarsnap, because I don't have a time machine.

This is exactly what someone who had a time machine would want us to think ;)

Re: Thoughts on the Durov Arrest

#88

Post by surfingdino »

> Summing up: for the time being, if you run a social media company, or if you provide encrypted messaging services, which are accessible in France, and you’re based in the United States, get out of Europe.

If you make a mockery of the law enforcement's requests made within the scope of the local laws then yes, you should get out. Especially if you show your middle finger to the country you visit and hold citizenship of.

Durov has money to buy citizenships that allow him access to most of the world without needing to obtain a visa so I'm sure he has a well-paid legal team that proactively monitor the situation. He may have been informed of the legal noose tightening around his neck and chose to go to France for one reason--France does not extradite its citizens and he happens to hold French citizenship. This puts him out of the reach of other jurisdictions (e.g. the US) and he may be hoping for a deal and better food. We should wait for official information from the French authorities as well as for news of people connected to him and his businesses falling out of windows. The former will explain the latter.

Re: Thoughts on the Durov Arrest

#90

Post by mytailorisrich »

cedws wrote: post #84
mytailorisrich wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not for the government to communicate, and criminal investigations are secret in France. So prosecutors don't have to make any public statements or release any documents (and in fact they shouldn't) but in such high profile cases they are likely to make a general statement to placate the media.

Additionally, Durov being Russian may complicate things. Western intelligence may have information about him that cannot be released.

The man has four passports and I'm curious about how he got the French one... This is on his Wikipedia page:

"Durov was naturalized as a French citizen in August 2021, giving him European Union citizenship. Le Monde described the naturalisation as "mysterious", since Durov had not resided in France apart from brief visits. Le Monde suggested that Durov was naturalised via the rarely used "merit foreigner" procedure that is awarded directly by the French government to people viewed to have contributed exceptionally to France's international influence or international economic relations." [1]

Seems obvious that there is much more than meets the eye...

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pavel_Durov

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