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Is Telegram really an encrypted messaging app?

blog.cryptographyengineering.com

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Re: Is Telegram really an encrypted messaging app?

#481

Post by misiek08 »

icepat wrote: post #141
tamimio wrote: post #9

It’s not encrypted by default, and even if it were encrypted, you should never trust any connected device with anything important. That being said, Telegram is hands down the best communication platform right now. It is feature-rich, with features implemented years ago that are only now being added to other platforms. It has normal chatting/video calls, groups, channels, and unlimited storage in theory, all for free.…

What's in Telegram that you don't see in Signal? Honest question, I only use Signal rather than Telegram.

The worst UX you can provide. Clumsy, slowly switching views, search worse than on WhatsApp, stickers like from 2005, no formatting, no bot API (of course there are few "hacked" ones implementations, but is it really the way?), margin and padding bloated UI.

# No smooth animations - that's makes Telegram stand out from everything else here, but maybe not everyone is happy when 6-core phones can deliver something more than 60fps in 2024...

That's what I remember and yes - mostly those are probably easy to fix UI/UX features/bugs, but even being open-source - they aren't.

Re: Is Telegram really an encrypted messaging app?

#482

Post by furyg3 »

Canada wrote: post #468

Let's stop repeating this word "moderate" when what we're talking about is censorship. Moderation is what happens here on HN: Admins have some policies to keep the conversation on track, users voluntarily submit to them. Censorship is when a third party uses coercion to force admins to submit to them and remove posts against their will. Durov has been arrested for refusing to implement censorship, not for anything co…

Yes but let's also be clear that some forms of speech censorship are widely and broadly supported in public, 'town square' or broadcast media situations. Things like child porn, personal threats, calling for or organizing violence, hate speech, etc. Laws and social acceptance of this kind of censorship, of course, differ in different regions.

Hacker news may 'moderate' illegal content on this website, but they don't have a choice in the matter, US or State authorities will shut them down if they do not, so it's technically censorship. Your view on whether this is good or bad will depend on many factors, one of which may be how you view the legal structure of your government, which is substantially different in France, the US, or Dubai (where Telegram is located).

As is mentioned in the article, Telegram is not simple a 'secure messaging app'. They are also serving a role similar to Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, or TikTok. They host publicly accessible channels or public group chats with thousands of members, which are all (apparently) unencrypted and accessible to the Telegram company. It may be reasonable (both legally and socially) to expect that a company which has knowledge of public, illegal speech to take steps to remove that content from their platform.

And Durov, by choosing to be a media company and not E2E encrypt all of his user's private communications, has walked right into a situation where he needs to abide by local laws moderating/censoring illegal content, everywhere.

Re: Is Telegram really an encrypted messaging app?

#483

Post by bigbacaloa »

Canada wrote: post #468

Let's stop repeating this word "moderate" when what we're talking about is censorship. Moderation is what happens here on HN: Admins have some policies to keep the conversation on track, users voluntarily submit to them. Censorship is when a third party uses coercion to force admins to submit to them and remove posts against their will. Durov has been arrested for refusing to implement censorship, not for anything co…

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Re: Is Telegram really an encrypted messaging app?

#484

Post by bigbacaloa »

StrLght wrote: post #433
zuhsetaqi wrote: post #421

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Signal doesn't require sharing of phone numbers It does require a phone number to create an account. That’s the reason I do not consider it being private because at least in Germany a phone number can only be activated by using a personal ID card which it is connected to.

Private and anonymous are two very different things

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Re: Is Telegram really an encrypted messaging app?

#485

Post by elcomet »

tcfhgj wrote: post #470
medo-bear wrote: post #445

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They probably should implement E2EE for everything Certainly not because then Telegram would lose alot of its functionality that makes it great. One thing that I really enjoy about Telegram is that I can have it open and synched across many independent devices. Telegram also has e2e as an option on some clients which cant be synched

You can sync messages across many independent devices despite e2ee. Matrix has been doing that for years

Even whatsapp does it now

Re: Is Telegram really an encrypted messaging app?

#486

Post by noisy_boy »

guappa wrote: post #438
p4bl0 wrote: post #435

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's because Telegram is marketing itself as a secure messaging app, and because journalists continuously present it as such while discussing the arrest of its CEO.

I've only heard telegram presented as a messenger for criminals in western media.

For some, that would be a pretty big testament for security. What is the app used by people that are facing the power of law enforcement? If it can withstand that, it must be secure.

Re: Is Telegram really an encrypted messaging app?

#487

Post by ikt »

wkat4242 wrote: post #164
bryanlarsen wrote: post #34

Try the mud puddle test: log into your account on a new device using the password recovery flow. Can you see your old messages? If the answer is yes then law enforcement can too. https://www.forbes.com/sites/anthonykosner/2012/08/05/how-se...

> If the answer is yes then law enforcement can too. Is it technically possible for them to see it: yes Does Telegram let them see it: I don't think so. That seems to be the core issue around Durov being arrested. They probably should implement E2EE for everything. Then they will have a good excuse not to cooperate, because they simply don't have the data.

> They probably should implement E2EE for everything

He explained in his blog why he doesn't like E2EE:

https://telegra.ph/Why-Isnt-Telegram-End-to-End-Encrypted-by...

Why Isn’t Telegram End-to-End Encrypted by Default?

Pavel Durov August 15, 2017

Re: Is Telegram really an encrypted messaging app?

#488

Post by medo-bear »

elcomet wrote: post #485
tcfhgj wrote: post #470

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can sync messages across many independent devices despite e2ee. Matrix has been doing that for years

Even whatsapp does it now

Does it? Last time I used WhatsApp I could not use it on my desktop without scanning a QR code each time and keeping the phone nearby.

Re: Is Telegram really an encrypted messaging app?

#489

Post by Happily2020 »

toofy wrote: post #452
theshrike79 wrote: post #430

I don't know why people get hung up on Telegram's encryption. Maybe they're trying to make it be something it isn't. Is Discord end to end encrypted, is IRC? Nope, does it make them useless? Again no. Same with Telegram, it's a chat tool where you can select your audience and have a good UX with native bot support. (like Discord and IRC). That's what I want, nothing more. If I want to plan a coup, I'd use something e…

because on their front page in giant font they call themselves private and secure and outright say “heavily encrypted”. it’s their own fault. a better question might be: why do they keep over and over crying when people call them out for endangering their users? it’s super odd.

Exactly this. It is all about how they market themselves. If they had promoted themselves as a social media-ish platform, nobody would be causing a fuss about their encryption.

Neither discord, nor any of the popular IRC clients (HexChat, WeeChat, mIRC) even mention the word security or privacy to promote their products.

Moreover, as Mathew Green mentioned in his blog post, there are many instances where Telegram (or Pavel Durov) has gone out of his way to attack the encryption offered by Signal and WhatsApp. If he were pitting his messenger against discord, why would he be worried about Signal or WhatsApp?

Re: Is Telegram really an encrypted messaging app?

#490

Post by prmoustache »

maqp wrote: post #231
mfiro wrote: post #175

In my opinion, Telegram is more of a social network than a messenger. There are many useful channels and in many countries, it plays an important role in sharing information. If we look at it from this point of view, e2ee does not seem very important. We should also not forget that, in the time when all social media (Reddit, X, Instagram etc.) close their APIs, Telegram is one of the only networks that still has a fr…

That's the dangerous part. It's a messaging app that took in the function of a social media platform. It did so without robust security features like end-to-end encryption yet it advertised itself as heavily encrypted. Like Green stated in his blog post, users expect that to mean only recipient can read what you say, i.e. end-to-end encryption. Telegram would be fine if it advertised itself as a public square of the…

Most "normal" people use messaging app and social medias DM interchangeably.

For instance 2 days ago my partner wanted to show me a message her friend sent, went to whatsapp and couldn't find it then realized said friend had used instagram DM for that. Most people don't care enough.

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