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Is Telegram really an encrypted messaging app?

blog.cryptographyengineering.com

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Re: Is Telegram really an encrypted messaging app?

#441

Post by mojuba »

wruza wrote: post #344
tpoacher wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is one of those questions where it's hard to answer but it's obvious once you use it. What's the difference between a fiat and a ferrari? What's the difference between CentOS and Linux Mint? What's the difference between a macdonalds and a michelin burger? I have friends and groups on both platforms. On Signal, I'm basically just sending messages (and only unimportant one, like, when are we meeting. Sending medi…

I second the point about the difference. Can’t tell why, but signal and whatsapp feel just awful ui/ux-wise. And that’s not a habit thing, I’ve used whatsapp before telegram (and still it was unideal). Telegram knows UX-fu and how to grow without being the only player on the board.

I think it's mainly Telegram's native feel (and it is native on every platform it supports afaik). It's even in little trivial things like the rubber band effect on Apple's platforms, then in how smooth the loading of missing stuff from the network is, and finally it's in the design: Telegram is slick.

All those little things combined and when you switch from Telegram to Signal or WhatsApp it feels like going a couple of decades back, or something like that.

Honestly I don't know how much I can trust Telegram and its founder Pavel Durov (I probably shouldn't), but in terms of the quality of software it's unmatched.

Re: Is Telegram really an encrypted messaging app?

#442

Post by cja »

cja wrote: post #29
AnotherGoodName wrote: post #6

If telegrams encryption is so bad why is Pavel Durov under arrest? The arrest cites that he was not cooperating with authorities to crack down on various drug illegal activities on telegram. None of the other social networks have their ceos arrested. Is it simply that telegram is the only one without backdoors for five eyes? It seems to me the secret chat feature actually works too well?

Telegram is the comms system for the Russian military.

Please could whoever downvoted this explain why? There's plenty of evidence of this. Access to Telegram would be like cracking Enigma

Re: Is Telegram really an encrypted messaging app?

#443

Post by nox101 »

bryanlarsen wrote: post #34

Try the mud puddle test: log into your account on a new device using the password recovery flow. Can you see your old messages? If the answer is yes then law enforcement can too. https://www.forbes.com/sites/anthonykosner/2012/08/05/how-se...

I'm probably dumb, but why would that be proof?

I upload encrypted backups to a cloud service provider (AWS, Google Cloud). I go to another computer, download them, use a key/password to decrypt them.

Sure, I get it, you're typing in something that decrypts the data into their app. That's true of all apps including WhatsApp, etc... The only way this could really be secure is if you used a different app to the encryption that you wrote/audited such that the messaging app never has access to your password/private key. Otherwise, at some point, you're trusting their app to do what they claim.

Re: Is Telegram really an encrypted messaging app?

#444

Post by tsimionescu »

maqp wrote: post #363
sam_lowry_ wrote: post #345

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>And if they say yes, ask them what it means I just did it to gather anecdotal evidence and the answer was, the founder is in jail to protect their privacy.

So they take theatrics over logical evaluation of the situation. Cool. Tell them Durov could have locked himself out of their data and spared himself the trip to behind bars.

Durov is in jail because he is not doing moderation of public chat channels, as far as has been shared. It has exactly nothing to do with encryption or privacy, in both directions (that is, it doesn't in the slightest prove that Telegram doesn't share private data with various states; and E2EE of private chats would not have done one iota to keep him out of jail).

Re: Is Telegram really an encrypted messaging app?

#445

Post by medo-bear »

wkat4242 wrote: post #164
bryanlarsen wrote: post #34

Try the mud puddle test: log into your account on a new device using the password recovery flow. Can you see your old messages? If the answer is yes then law enforcement can too. https://www.forbes.com/sites/anthonykosner/2012/08/05/how-se...

> If the answer is yes then law enforcement can too. Is it technically possible for them to see it: yes Does Telegram let them see it: I don't think so. That seems to be the core issue around Durov being arrested. They probably should implement E2EE for everything. Then they will have a good excuse not to cooperate, because they simply don't have the data.

> They probably should implement E2EE for everything

Certainly not because then Telegram would lose alot of its functionality that makes it great. One thing that I really enjoy about Telegram is that I can have it open and synched across many independent devices. Telegram also has e2e as an option on some clients which cant be synched

Re: Is Telegram really an encrypted messaging app?

#446

Post by guappa »

maqp wrote: post #363
sam_lowry_ wrote: post #345

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>And if they say yes, ask them what it means I just did it to gather anecdotal evidence and the answer was, the founder is in jail to protect their privacy.

So they take theatrics over logical evaluation of the situation. Cool. Tell them Durov could have locked himself out of their data and spared himself the trip to behind bars.

Why is he in jail anyway? Certainly he's not a pedo drug dealing terrorist… So there is another reason. As to what that is, we can only speculate.

My speculation is that he set a too high price to share the private data with france or USA.

Re: Is Telegram really an encrypted messaging app?

#447

Post by yard2010 »

tpoacher wrote: post #229
icepat wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's in Telegram that you don't see in Signal? Honest question, I only use Signal rather than Telegram.

This is one of those questions where it's hard to answer but it's obvious once you use it. What's the difference between a fiat and a ferrari? What's the difference between CentOS and Linux Mint? What's the difference between a macdonalds and a michelin burger? I have friends and groups on both platforms. On Signal, I'm basically just sending messages (and only unimportant one, like, when are we meeting. Sending medi…

Honest question - is Linux Mint the Ferrari of linix?

Re: Is Telegram really an encrypted messaging app?

#448

Post by guappa »

maqp wrote: post #381
wruza wrote: post #364

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can’t have secret chats for groups. For desktop secret chats you may use Unigram client (although it’s hard for me to justify a potentially non-mobile secret chat). The rest is trivial and isn’t that hard unless you contact hundreds of new people a day. In that case, I’d already thought of using ahk automation or a full-blown telethon bot.

Sounds like I should stick to Signal that got this right from the get-go.

apt install signal

Error: Unable to find the package signal

Re: Is Telegram really an encrypted messaging app?

#449

Post by yard2010 »

sundarurfriend wrote: post #148
kitkat_new wrote: post #2

The worst thing is that almost every non-techie who uses Telegram thinks Telegram in general is e2ee.

Not a single person I know who uses Telegram cares about or thinks of it as e2ee. Whether "techie" or "non-techie" (whatever the definition of that is). People use it because it has a nice interface, was one of the first to have good "sticker" message support (yes, a lot of people care about that kind of stuff), and of course because of the good old network effect. It's only on HN I ever see people set up Telegram as…

For the past few weeks I've been using Telegram to create my own cool sticker and when talking with people in whatsapp (eughh) I find myself having trouble finding the words my telegram stickers would mean

Re: Is Telegram really an encrypted messaging app?

#450

Post by tsimionescu »

ajsnigrutin wrote: post #282
StrLght wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd suggest waiting for more details from French officials, they have already said that they'll address it tomorrow. So far claims from the media sound like Durov's being prosecuted due to very little moderation on the platform, not because of E2EE. Even so, most messages sent on Telegram are plaintext, they're encrypted only in transport layer, but Telegram's servers see them in full. Secret chats (the only E2EE cha…

> So far claims from the media sound like Durov's being prosecuted due to very little moderation on the platform, not because of E2EE. But that's why it's good. With all the mainstream media censoring stuff, telegram was a (good for the people) exception. On the other hand, that's probably why they arrested him.

I don't think GP was claiming that is bad, just that his arrest has nothing to do with E2EE of private chats - at least that's the impression I also got from the media.
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