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Arrest of Pavel Durov, Telegram CEO, charges of terrorism, fraud, child porn

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Re: Arrest of Pavel Durov, Telegram CEO, charges of terrorism, fraud, child porn

#501

Post by Illotus »

zo1 wrote: post #338
znpy wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Isn't Whatsapp supposed to be end-to-end encrypted? It is supposedly end-to-end encrypted. And in a shallow way. Also the app is closed source and you can't develop your own. It's basically end-to-end-trust-me-bro-level encrypted.

I'm more disturbed by the fact that on HN we have 0 devs confirming or denying this thing about FBs internals wrt encryption. We know there are many devs that work there that are also HN users. But I've yet to see one of them chime in on this discussion. That should scare a lot of us.

I find it pretty ridiculous to assume that any dev would comment on the inner workings of their employers software in any way beyond what is publicly available anyway. I certainly wouldn't.

Re: Arrest of Pavel Durov, Telegram CEO, charges of terrorism, fraud, child porn

#502

Post by samstave »

devman0 wrote: post #99

A lot of really terrible takes in this comment section. Telegram didn't have encrypted groups by default, and telegram possessed a lot of content on their servers that they had been made aware was illegal and didn't cooperate. Nothing more, nothing less. The comparisons to other providers is off base because either other providers are cooperating more when they possess actionable, unencrypted information and taking s…

I posted this else ITT, but whats your opinion on the following (I have NO opinion - as I cant verify any facts about anything - so I am just an Observer of the events and what people are saying:)

---

https://i.imgur.com/ixak5vq.png

>This reminds me of the entire plot to the last of the Bourne movies, Jason Bourne, where there is a scene of the head of some intel agency (Tommy Lee Jones) propositioned a social media founder to give them backdoor access or he would be killed. Great movie.

https://youtu.be/VvfSkVDF8uE

Fun Thread:

https://old.reddit.com/r/conspiracy/comments/1f0i2yi/guess_w...

Re: Arrest of Pavel Durov, Telegram CEO, charges of terrorism, fraud, child porn

#503

Post by asdf6969 »

WickyNilliams wrote: post #440
asdf6969 wrote: post #369

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But why don’t they arrest them for allowing it to happen? Phone calls should be actively moderated to block customers who speak about terrorist activity.

Because the telcos _cooperate_ with law enforcement. It's not whether the platform is being used for illegal activity (all platforms are to some extent, as your facile comment shows). It's whether the operator of a platform actively avoids cooperating with LE to stop that activity once found.

I know. That’s obviously true, but I hate that it happens and it makes no sense to me why more people aren’t upset by it. What I’m trying to get at is that complying with rules that are stupid, ineffective, and unfair is not a good thing and anyone who thinks these goals are reasonable should apply them to equivalent services to realize they’re bad. Cooperation with law enforcement is morally neutral and not important.

The real goal is hurting anyone that’s not aligned with people in power regardless of who is getting helped or harmed. Everyone knows this but so many people in this thread are lying about it.

Re: Arrest of Pavel Durov, Telegram CEO, charges of terrorism, fraud, child porn

#504

Post by throwadobe »

qingcharles wrote: post #132
throwadobe wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Then I think you're legally required to tell the truth here. Or you can just not respond, at least in the US. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-incrimination

That only applies if you're the defendant. If you're the witness to a murder and you're subpoena'd to court and refuse to testify then you are committing contempt of court. There was a guy in Illinois who got 20 years (reduced to 6 on appeal) for refusing to testify in a murder. https://illinoiscaselaw.com/clecourses/contempt-of-court-max... Contempt of court usually has no boundaries on the punishment, nor any jury…

That guy needed a better lawyer. He could just have said "I don't remember. Can't say for sure" repeatedly

Re: Arrest of Pavel Durov, Telegram CEO, charges of terrorism, fraud, child porn

#505

Post by nabla9 »

dotancohen wrote: post #348
nabla9 wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Generally, there is no general legal obligation for bystanders or witnesses to report a crime, but there are exceptions.

To what jurisdiction are you referring?

As far as I know all western judicial systems, both civil and common law. But as I said, there are exceptions for certain professions, and situations.

Re: Arrest of Pavel Durov, Telegram CEO, charges of terrorism, fraud, child porn

#506

Post by twelve40 »

Zambyte wrote: post #487
konart wrote: post #403

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What about the server? Telegram is not strictly e2e.

Huh, I was going to point out that the Signal server isn't Free Software either, since for a while it wasn't being published, but it seems they have gotten back into publishing it. https://github.com/signalapp/Signal-Server

while it's amazing for them to keep maintaining it, as the person mentioned down the thread, it's hard to know what they are actually running, right? and it's not a lot of work to patch this or clone/branch as necessary before deploying. Oh well, i already resigned that a part of my life will be run by someone else by now.

Re: Arrest of Pavel Durov, Telegram CEO, charges of terrorism, fraud, child porn

#507

Post by pavlov »

whatnotests2 wrote: post #463
moqmar wrote: post #400

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In most jurisdictions yes AFAIK, if those services directly help an illegal activity, and you knew about the illegal activity.

Ok, like selling gasoline to the getaway car driver?

Working as a car driver isn’t illegal. Working as a getaway car driver is.

You’re making the opposite point of what you intended.

Re: Arrest of Pavel Durov, Telegram CEO, charges of terrorism, fraud, child porn

#508

Post by antimemetics »

lxgr wrote: post #305
antimemetics wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think in most modern democracies you aren’t legally required to tell the police anything. Courts are a different case though.

As a suspect . At least in court, as a completely non-involved bystander you have no right of refusal to testify in most jurisdictions. Not sure whether that extends to police questioning though.

It doesn’t extend to police questioning, i also pointed out it’s a different thing when you are in a court. For the police an innocent bystander can turn into a suspect real fast.

Re: Arrest of Pavel Durov, Telegram CEO, charges of terrorism, fraud, child porn

#509

Post by nomdep »

ajross wrote: post #478
kyleee wrote: post #371

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it illegal to offer legal services to undesirables and/or criminals?

If you know your services are going to be used to commit a crime, then yes, that makes you an accessory and basically all jurisdictions (I know basically nothing about French criminal law) can prosecute you for that. Crime is, y'know, illegal.

I'm appalled that you would argue in good faith that a tool for communicating in secret can be reasonably described as a service used to commit a crime.

Why aren't all gun manufacturers in jail then? They must know a percentage of their products are going to be used to commit crimes. A much larger percentage than those using Telegram to commit one.

Re: Arrest of Pavel Durov, Telegram CEO, charges of terrorism, fraud, child porn

#510

Post by Muromec »

kyleee wrote: post #371
Aurornis wrote: post #318

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This distinction gets lost in these discussions all of the time. A company that makes an effort to comply with laws is in a completely different category than a company that makes the fact that they’ll look the other way one of their core selling points. Years ago there was a case where someone built a business out of making hidden compartments in cars. He did an amazing job of making James Bond style hidden compartm…

Is it illegal to offer legal services to undesirables and/or criminals?

Try to deposit 10k to your bank account and then, when they call you and ask the obvious question, answer that you sold some meth or robbed someone. They will totally be fine with this answer, as they are just a platform for providing money services and well, you can always just pay for everything in cash.
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