So let's say I open up a night club. I have to abide the laws and regulations, and make sure things like the following: Minors aren't getting in or being served alcohol, that people aren't selling drugs there, that prostitutes aren't doing business there. If undercover agents come by, and discover that minors are purchasing alcohol - the business will get fined, and likely banned from selling alcohol for some time. I…
Lets say I open up a grocery store. Criminals start buying their food and bookkeeping supplies there. The police discover this. Should I be held liable for fueling and enabling these criminals?
Arrest of Pavel Durov, Telegram CEO, charges of terrorism, fraud, child porn
311–320 of 878 posts
Re: Arrest of Pavel Durov, Telegram CEO, charges of terrorism, fraud, child porn
#312Earlier quoted context omitted.
Really? That’s a really disappointing example of censorship. The state has no business judging the truth.
One of those was @rtnews which is definitely state-sponsored propaganda and remains inaccessible to this day. They cooperated to some degree, but I'll go out on a limb to say that the authorities wanted Telegram to be fully subservient to western government interests.
Re: Arrest of Pavel Durov, Telegram CEO, charges of terrorism, fraud, child porn
#313Whoa, it's absurd if true... I fail to see how being responsible for not cooperating with authorities can be turned into being accused of these crimes. And I don't care for the legal gymnastics which makes this possible - the law exists to serve the public interest and is of no inherent value.
Re: Arrest of Pavel Durov, Telegram CEO, charges of terrorism, fraud, child porn
#314Earlier quoted context omitted.
You're technically right (I think). However, I believe if you witness a murder and know the murderer and the police asks you: "Do you know anything about X murder?" Then I think you're legally required to tell the truth here.
> Then I think you're legally required to tell the truth here. Or you can just not respond, at least in the US. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-incrimination
Re: Arrest of Pavel Durov, Telegram CEO, charges of terrorism, fraud, child porn
#315Earlier quoted context omitted.
I've actually given up trying to post on Reddit for this reason. Whenever I've tried to join in on a discussion in some subreddit that's relevant(eg r/chess) my post has been autoremoved by a bot because my karma is too low or my account is "too new". Well how can I get any karma if all my posts are deleted?
Even those who farm accounts know the simple answer to your question. You have to spend a little time being civil in other subreddits before you reveal the real you. Just takes a few weeks.
I'm not particularly interested in spending a lot of time posting on reddit. But very occasionally I'll come across a thread I can contribute meaningfully to and want to comment. Even if allowed I'd probably just make a couple comments a year or something. But I guess the site isn't set up for that, so fuck it.
Re: Arrest of Pavel Durov, Telegram CEO, charges of terrorism, fraud, child porn
#316If people were using my backyard to sell drugs or CSAM, I knew it, and did nothing about it, I would absolutely be guilty of facilitating these crimes. I fail to see how the situation is different for Pasha.
if i put up a random E2E encrypted messaging side project i made on github and then people started using it for CSAM? People use government built sidewalks to sell drugs, does that mean I can sue the govt for the drug trade?
1. If drug dealers used my backyard. 2. If I knew about it and did absolutely nothing about it.
And yes, if the government knows about someone selling drugs and does nothing about it, you can sue the government.
At least in theory, in countries not ridden with corruption (which probably aren't that many).
Re: Arrest of Pavel Durov, Telegram CEO, charges of terrorism, fraud, child porn
#317Earlier quoted context omitted.
Telegram is not a secure messaging platform. By default Telegram is not encrypted at all. Only "secret chats" in Telegram are encrypted. Telegram groups are not - and those can be made public and basically are just Telegram hosting content on their servers for you.
That's a popular lie, Telegram uses the MTProto 2.0 Cloud algorithm for non-secret chats, which is audited and verified by multiple independent parties. For example WhatsApp claims it uses EE2E encrypted chats, how ever these claims are unverified and not audited. Also their chief executives are not in jail, coincidentally. You can consult these links if you want to read more about it: https://core.telegram.org/mtpro…
This is a Ukraine channel. You can preview it in a web browser. If Telegram can enable that functionality, then it means they have the complete capability to serve the content of the channel. Same story if they can scroll back an existing channel to new users.
Re: Arrest of Pavel Durov, Telegram CEO, charges of terrorism, fraud, child porn
#318This seems like the Kim Dotcom situation again. Why are these service providers being punished for what their users do? Specifically, these service providers? Because Google, Discord, Reddit, etc. all contain some amount of CSAM (and other illegal content), yet I don't see Pichai, Citron, or Huffman getting indicted for anything. Hell, then there's the actual infrastructure providers too. This seems like a slippery s…
Because those providers cooperate with authorities and moderate their content to a fairly large degree?
Years ago there was a case where someone built a business out of making hidden compartments in cars. He did an amazing job of making James Bond style hidden compartments that perfectly blended into the interior. He was later arrested because drug dealers used his hidden compartment business to help their drug trade.
There was an uproar about the fact that he wasn’t doing the drug crimes himself. He was only making hidden compartments which could be used for anything. How was he supposed to know that the hidden compartments were being used for illegal activities rather than keeping people’s valuables safe during a break-in?
Yet when the details of the case came out, IIRC, it was clear that he was leaning into the illegal trades and marketing his services to those people. He lost his plausible deniability after even a cursory look at how he was operating.
I don’t know what, if any, parts of that case apply to Pavel Durov. I do like to share it as an example of how intent matters and how one can become complicit in other crimes by operating in a manner where one of your selling points is that you’ll help anyone out even when their intent is to break the law. It’s also why smart corporate criminals will shut down and walk away when it becomes too obvious that they’re losing plausible deniability in a criminal enterprise.
Re: Arrest of Pavel Durov, Telegram CEO, charges of terrorism, fraud, child porn
#319> jpost.com > • 5 hours ago > Pavel Durov, Telegram founder, arrested by France following warrant - The Jerusalem Post > The alleged offenses include: terrorism, narcotic supply, fraud, money laundering and receiving stolen goods. For those unaware, all channel on telegram are NOT ENCRYPTED. They are stored in plaintext on telegram servers. All chats that are not 'secret chat' mode (single device to single device) ar…
This is misinformation that Telegram stores chat data in plaintext on their servers. It stores it encrypted with encryption keys split across the globe. Not perfect, but multiple legal jurisdictions would have to be subpoenad for Telegram to read your non-secret chats.
The physical storage location is completely irrelevant. What matters is access, and they have that.
Telegram has full operational control over these keys, as demonstrated by the fact that anyone that can perform SMS verification is able to access past messages on an account, and SMS-OTP can in principle not involve any cryptographic operation, as there is absolutely no user input.
Re: Arrest of Pavel Durov, Telegram CEO, charges of terrorism, fraud, child porn
#320Earlier quoted context omitted.
Why are these service providers being punished for what their users do [...] maybe I'm just being naive? In this case, the comment does strike me as naive. Back in the 1990s the tech community convinced itself (myself included) that Napster had zero ethical responsibility for the mass piracy it enabled. In reality, law in a society is supposed to serve that society. The tech community talked itself into believing tha…
> Napster had zero ethical responsibility for the mass piracy it enabled How could they have any moral responsibility for ethically neutral thing other people were doing?