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BMW Overtakes Tesla in European EV Sales for First Time

electriccarsreport.com

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Re: BMW Overtakes Tesla in European EV Sales for First Time

#321

Post by throwadobe »

throw0101d wrote: post #227
throwadobe wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The mission of Tesla is to maximize value to its shareholders

> The mission of Tesla is to maximize value to its shareholders That is one philosophy: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friedman_doctrine * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shareholder_primacy It is not the only one: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stakeholder_theory * https://corpgov.law.harvard.edu/2012/06/26/the-shareholder-v...

The shareholders literally own the company, so they are the ones who get to decide what gets maximized. Most shareholders decide they want returns to themselves to be maximized. Not all will in every single company at every point in time, but it's likely the case 99.9% of the time.

Re: BMW Overtakes Tesla in European EV Sales for First Time

#322

Post by rsynnott »

linotype wrote: post #97
darkteflon wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The i3 was such a great city car, well ahead of its time. Such a shame that they have apparently abandoned the EV design ethos embodied in that car (and that car alone) in favour of bloated luxo-barges. Tell me that your EV strategy is about brand greenwashing without telling me it’s about brand greenwashing. They seem to be really focused on chasing the Boomer demographic. I’m a happy former customer (twice over) bu…

Many (not all, obviously) boomers will never buy an EV because of identity politics in the midwestern United States. I wouldn’t be surprised if this is true elsewhere as well. Why they’re not pumping out $25k 250 mile range city cars for millenials and gen z is a mystery to me.

In most of Europe, at least, the “producing lots of CO2 is good, actually” thing popular on the US right is just not a significant factor in mainstream politics. In practice, looked at globally, it’s mostly only a thing in big fossil fuel producers; the stats on global warming denial in particular are very stark, with the US and Australia _way_ out ahead of the rest of the developed world.

Re: BMW Overtakes Tesla in European EV Sales for First Time

#323

Post by throwadobe »

lern_too_spel wrote: post #203
throwadobe wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The mission of Tesla is to maximize value to its shareholders

Not quite. Tesla's mission is to do what its voting shareholders want. Usually, shareholders want to maximize their returns, but Tesla's shareholders voted to reduce their returns to overpay Musk for work already done.

Presumably because they believe keeping Musk will increase value long term, so they are still maximizing the value of the future cashflows discounted to the present.

The size of Musk's ownership stake adds another layer to this metric, but at the limit, that really that just means the words "they" in my previous statement can be replaced with "Elon Musk"

Re: BMW Overtakes Tesla in European EV Sales for First Time

#324

Post by rsynnott »

devvvvvvv wrote: post #124
MBCook wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We've never known how poplar Tesla is vs electric cars. For a long time they were the only option outside of a few individual models (Leaf, i3, Volt). They were easily the most well known. We're at the point where Tesla will stop being a near default choice as people realize they have other options. So we'll start to find out what their popularity really is. The US has also been distorted by the charging network issu…

We do know. Tesla wins, obviously in the US, and apparently also in Europe: https://i.imgur.com/ZNv1AyD.jpg https://imgur.com/56eG7CN Could it change? Maybe. But right now Tesla is the most popular EV in the US and Europe.

> and apparently also in Europe:

I’m fairly sure that if you take Volkswagen AG as one vendor (which you probably should, because it is one), they outsell Tesla (they have about six brands producing electric cars, mostly rebrands of the VW id.3/4.)

Re: BMW Overtakes Tesla in European EV Sales for First Time

#325

Post by throw0101d »

throwadobe wrote: post #321
throw0101d wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The mission of Tesla is to maximize value to its shareholders That is one philosophy: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friedman_doctrine * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shareholder_primacy It is not the only one: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stakeholder_theory * https://corpgov.law.harvard.edu/2012/06/26/the-shareholder-v...

The shareholders literally own the company, so they are the ones who get to decide what gets maximized. Most shareholders decide they want returns to themselves to be maximized. Not all will in every single company at every point in time, but it's likely the case 99.9% of the time.

> The shareholders literally own the company […]

They do not actually.

* https://archive.ph/VCUp4 / https://www.ft.com/content/7bd1b20a-879b-11e5-90de-f44762bf9...

* https://www.pqmagazine.com/the-myth-of-shareholder-ownership...

* https://www.forbes.com/sites/petergeorgescu/2021/07/21/the-s...

* https://edwardslaw.ca/blog/shareholders-agreements-in-canada...

* https://www.ippr.org/articles/who-owns-a-company

* https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/journal-of-instituti...

They have certain claims, but so do customers, suppliers, employees, governments (taxes), bond holders, etc. The claims of shareholders come last, which is why owning stock gets you higher returns (than, e.g., bonds from the company): you're at highest risk of losing money from being last on claims, so you should be rewarded for that higher risk.

Re: BMW Overtakes Tesla in European EV Sales for First Time

#326

Post by mullingitover »

chii wrote: post #247
epistasis wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, Tesla's execution has been really terrible. There's some really good tech inside their cars, but the direction of which cars to make, when, and the investments in non-car tech, the over-promising of "Full Self Driving," etc. All huge detractors. There's also the CEO, who has a huge public profile, deciding to become extremely political, which smart CEOs usually avoid doing because it has little potential to help…

> deciding to become extremely political personally, my purchase decisions do not include the personality or celebrity of the company (CEO or otherwise). There's objective measures you compare against another product (like price, looks, performance, quality etc), and you choose the best fit.

> personally, my purchase decisions do not include the personality or celebrity of the company (CEO or otherwise).

This is a normal hacker news commenter position, but not a normal consumer position.

One of the first things you learn in a freshman year marketing course is the fact that consumers in general make spending decisions on feeling, not on raw data. It's the reason commercials you see on television are all about vibes, and not remotely about the raw performance numbers. See also: Apple never wastes its time droning on about the specs of their devices in their commercials.

This is why the public persona of Tesla's CEO has a material impact on the company's sales, and why it's hurting the company. I'd argue that Musk has outright disdain for his customers and considers them 'woke,' and is enthusiastically running the company into the ground out of pure spite.

Re: BMW Overtakes Tesla in European EV Sales for First Time

#327

Post by Retric »

avar wrote: post #307
Retric wrote: post #297

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with self dealing is they need to pay taxes at registration. So while sure you can inflate the numbers it isn’t just an on paper thing this is treated as a sale and there’s real consequences of that. As to shifting the quarter something is sold, people aren’t getting a car before registration here. Selling of excess inventory at a discount is still actual sales.

Sure, but now we've shifted from "isn’t gameable" to "gameable for a price", perhaps to inflate the stock price as you make the news for outselling Tesla or something. And yes, you'd need to deliver the car to consumers. I'm just saying that you can time shift when that happens, if you wanted to inflate the numbers in the short term for whatever reason.

By your metric sales are also “gameable for a price” as long as you are willing to take a big enough loss essentially an unlimited number of people will buy new cars at 1,000$ a pop.

What makes metrics like manufacturing actually “gameable” is you can still sell the cars manufactured with the buzz from manufacturing more X than anyone else. Pump the numbers for 6 months and then cut production and coast until product is sold off. Your out a little time value of money but it doesn’t take much free play to cover that.

Re: BMW Overtakes Tesla in European EV Sales for First Time

#328

Post by Retric »

klingoff wrote: post #283
avar wrote: post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> they are using registrations > which means actual sales No, you register a car in order to drive it on public roads in a given country. Some purchased cars are never registered (track use, private export etc.), or defer the registration (no reason to pay road tax if you're not driving it yet).

Right, the useful number instead of a comparison between cars sold to the European public and cars sold at the location as a matter of the logistical accident that it is the head quarters of the manufacturer.

Registration is useful because it cuts out cars manufactured in Germany but shipped to South Africa. We don’t want to bias these numbers based on each company’s internal logistics. That stuff is more relevant from a jobs perspective than a market perspective.

Re: BMW Overtakes Tesla in European EV Sales for First Time

#329

Post by acdha »

ToValueFunfetti wrote: post #255
acdha wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They’ve sold 16k according to this and the inventory stacking up suggests they aren’t getting 80k more sales very quickly. https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/tesla-...

That's also how I interpreted the parent (over 100k sold), but the intended meaning does appear in that article: >Cybertruck sold nearly 4,800 units in July - its best month yet and making it by far the best-selling vehicle in the U.S. priced over $100,000

Ah, that makes sense on second read. Thanks!

Re: BMW Overtakes Tesla in European EV Sales for First Time

#330

Post by HDThoreaun »

mensetmanusman wrote: post #237
NightlyDev wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, BYD passed Tesla in sales in Q4 2023. Tesla was ahead, but that is no longer the case.

Byd is selling $10k vehicles. Those would be considered nice golf carts in the us.

BYD's cars are nicer than GMs though.
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