BMW Overtakes Tesla in European EV Sales for First Time • Hacker News Board

Re: BMW Overtakes Tesla in European EV Sales for First Time

#191

Post by slg » Sat, Aug 24, 2024, 1:09 AM UTC

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #168

the_gastropod wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Talk about a not accurate representation... > the Twitter acquisition followed a period of Twitter (and most other social media) banning a lot of conservative accounts for publishing truthful reporting (New York Post) The NY Post's Twitter has been banned multiple times, including the most recent one that happened in March 2023, well after Musk's takeover of the company. > or actual satire with the disfavored politic…

> The NY Post's Twitter has been banned multiple times They were, in particular, suspended immediately prior to the 2020 election over a story that was substantially accurate. > Twitter had terms of use. Everything has terms of use. All of the terms of use are purposely written so that anything the company wants can be construed as a violation. But also, "misgendering people" is a point of political dispute . "We pro…

>But also, "misgendering people" is a point of political dispute.

If I ask you to call me Bill and you keep calling me William, you're an asshole. I don't know how misgendering people is any different. Just call people what they want to be called. You don't have to turn this into some ideological battle.

Re: BMW Overtakes Tesla in European EV Sales for First Time

#192

Post by al_borland » Sat, Aug 24, 2024, 1:11 AM UTC

cameldrv wrote: post #172

al_borland wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the number of Uber drivers with Teslas makes it seem like less of a status symbol. A Model 3 or Y isn’t a flex. They start around $30k, which isn’t exactly luxury pricing. Making cars people can afford is a good thing, but once that happens, it stops being a status symbol.

It may not be a flex, but having an electric car is still a statement (less than it used to be, but still) that you're a high tech, forward thinking, environmentally conscious person. The problem is that now it's also a statement that you're a Trump supporter.

Those 2 assumptions are at odds with each other. The Trump supporters I know don’t want anything to do with electric cars, and Trump was the one fighting for coal to remain viable, which is the exact opposite of environmentally conscious.

Personally, I have never seen a Tesla and assumed the driver was a Trump supporter. The much bigger stereotype is that the left buys EVs.

I don’t think many people are trading in their Cummings diesel 2500 truck for anything electric. The die hard Trump fans would be on Truth Social, not Twitter. They might like some stuff Elon is doing, but I don’t think they are going to give up their gas engines over him.

Re: BMW Overtakes Tesla in European EV Sales for First Time

#193

Post by foobazgt » Sat, Aug 24, 2024, 1:13 AM UTC

arcbyte wrote: post #29

two_handfuls wrote: post #22

The Tesla brand has suffered enormously due to the actions of its owner.

I hear people say this bit then I see those same people go and buy Teslas anyway. The real reason Tesla is suffering is because they've not delivered on innovation, quality, or price in a long time.

This seems in direct contrast to reality. The long-range RWD model 3 (360mi of range) is available for $35K (after federal tax credit). That's more bang-for-the-buck than I've seen for any car in my lifetime. I'm not aware of any class competitor that's even mildly close.

Re: BMW Overtakes Tesla in European EV Sales for First Time

#194

Post by al_borland » Sat, Aug 24, 2024, 1:15 AM UTC

sangnoir wrote: post #174

al_borland wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Step 1 is to stop buying things (or not) because you care how it will make you look to other people who don’t actually care. I don’t have a Tesla, but if someone is going to judge me based on the assumed political views of the CEO of the car brand I happen to drive… they need to get a life. Does the company make a good car? That’s the only thing that actually matters.

> Step 1 is to stop buying things (or not) because you care how it will make you look to other people who don’t actually care Car OEMs invest millions in branding on the basis of/to promote the opposite of what you're saying: the brand is an expression or an extension of the buyers identity.

That’s what marketing is, but as individuals we should seek to understand the goal of marketing so we don’t blindly fall for it. It’s not real.

As the old saying goes… we spend money we don’t have, on things we don’t need, to impress people we don’t care about.

We can choose to not do that, and the marketing department can go to hell.

Re: BMW Overtakes Tesla in European EV Sales for First Time

#195

Post by blackeyeblitzar » Sat, Aug 24, 2024, 1:18 AM UTC

Mistletoe wrote: post #118

o11c wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not convinced that's actually the dominant factor. The market share for EVs is still small enough that there's no real shortage of buyers. But it turns out that having a hundred years of domain experience building cars actually matters for something. Tesla cars have had a lot of avoidable failures on technical merits.

We cancelled ours when he tweeted and insinuated there were valid reasons for someone sneaking into the Pelosi house and hitting her husband in the head with a hammer. It would have been our second Tesla purchase and now we have none. Could not imagine being associated with Elon in any way and certainly not in the car I drive around.

> We cancelled ours when he tweeted and insinuated there were valid reasons for someone sneaking into the Pelosi house and hitting her husband in the head with a hammer

Actually it is you who is insinuating something, incorrectly. You’re suggesting that Musk said the attack was justified. He didn’t. He retweeted an article that suggested a connection between the attacker and Paul Pelosi, and Musk added, “There is a tiny possibility there might be more to this story than meets the eye.” Musk was careful to acknowledge that the chance that there was more to the story was low (“tiny possibility”). He also later deleted his own tweet within a few hours of it being posted.

I don’t see a problem with people speculating about what may have happened. We know what happens when speculation is not allowed - you get situations like the lab leak theory being incorrectly suppressed until it is too late to investigate WIV or hold the CCP accountable. As for why people speculated anything in the Pelosi situation at all: the official recording of the police interaction in this incident has Paul Pelosi telling police that David was a “friend”. This caused people to search for reasons this friend would be visiting the home at odd hours.

Re: BMW Overtakes Tesla in European EV Sales for First Time

#196

Post by taurath » Sat, Aug 24, 2024, 1:21 AM UTC

mrbungie wrote: post #107

epistasis wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, Tesla's execution has been really terrible. There's some really good tech inside their cars, but the direction of which cars to make, when, and the investments in non-car tech, the over-promising of "Full Self Driving," etc. All huge detractors. There's also the CEO, who has a huge public profile, deciding to become extremely political, which smart CEOs usually avoid doing because it has little potential to help…

This is just an opinion but Musk, out of some level of autism and/or narcissism, must think those things just don't apply to him. I say that because sometimes the way he acts appears as he thinks he is so smart that he can circumvent typical social/economical/politica etiquette and even evade consequences. Well, it has actually worked for him. The world makes a lot of exceptions about etiquette for him.

The world also likes to chew up people they once lionized who end up being deeply flawed. He had business making technology, but he has no business being in politics. He is literally the richest person on the planet, and the way that works is you no longer have any problems that anyone can relate to, and you can afford to not listen to literally anything that makes you uncomfortable. He's gone down a very dark path through his choices - choices that serve him and his ego above all. No wonder the only person he has anything in common with anymore is Donald Trump.

Re: BMW Overtakes Tesla in European EV Sales for First Time

#197

Post by cscurmudgeon » Sat, Aug 24, 2024, 1:22 AM UTC

root_axis wrote: post #43

epistasis wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, Tesla's execution has been really terrible. There's some really good tech inside their cars, but the direction of which cars to make, when, and the investments in non-car tech, the over-promising of "Full Self Driving," etc. All huge detractors. There's also the CEO, who has a huge public profile, deciding to become extremely political, which smart CEOs usually avoid doing because it has little potential to help…

> Tesla has massively benefited from subsidies to EVs, but is alienating the political party that has enabled all of that. Well, he's expecting some reciprocity from the next administration for all his help, and Trump has said openly that he will support EVs as a consequence of Elon's strong support.

> Trump has said openly that he will support EVs

Source?

Re: BMW Overtakes Tesla in European EV Sales for First Time

#198

Post by AnthonyMouse » Sat, Aug 24, 2024, 1:23 AM UTC

sangnoir wrote: post #184

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What's less common is for CEOs to reverse polarity and publicly declare loyalty to a party in opposition of the products alleged mission. Take at a look at the list of US states by vehicles per capita or vehicle miles driven per capita. Red states at the top. If you're trying to get people to buy electric cars and stop burning oil, those are the ones you need to convince.

Extra miles don't earn Tesla additional revenue. Aside: do you believe that Elon's actions are motivated by the desire to reduce gas emissions in red states, or is this more of a thought experiment? My hot take is that his frustrations with Covid lockdowns in California kicked his animus toward Democratic party politicians into high gear.

> Extra miles don't earn Tesla additional revenue.

They do when they run a charging network.

Also, it's easier to sell an electric car to someone who is going to put a lot of miles on it because of the lower cost per mile, and does more good if the goal is to reduce CO2.

> do you believe that Elon's actions are motivated by the desire to reduce gas emissions in red states, or is this more of a thought experiment?

It's a counterpoint to the notion that progressives who live in cities and ride mass transit are the people the CEO of a car company has to appeal to. Whether the goal is to make more cars electric or just to sell more cars.

> My hot take is that his frustrations with Covid lockdowns in California kicked his animus toward Democratic party politicians into high gear.

That's probably not irrelevant.

The problem with politics right now is that everyone sucks and instead of trying to do better they all just want to tell you that the other side sucks worse, which causes aggressive polarization when most people are only listening to one side's pundits or the other. Everyone is being told that they need to vote against the enemy without ever being told what they're voting for.

People (Musk not excluded) then end up in one bubble or the other and the people in the other bubble are obliged to hate them out of tribal loyalty. Which especially rubs people the wrong way when it's someone who isn't squarely in one tribe or another.

Nobody blinks an eye when a Texas oil billionaire takes the conservative position on some issue.

Re: BMW Overtakes Tesla in European EV Sales for First Time

#199

Post by lotsofpulp » Sat, Aug 24, 2024, 1:23 AM UTC

blackeyeblitzar wrote: post #189

anon373839 wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Funny, it reads to me like: my money should go where I see fit.

What I see is that people here and on places like Reddit seem to support expression of political views when it is for their side. They wouldn’t take issue with CEOs supporting leftist social justice issues, for example. But when it is a CEO supporting centrist or right-leaning views, they don’t support it. And not just that, but they go out of their way to manufacture outrage or signal their actions in order to suppr…

> but it does also mean that you don’t support a society where ideas can be discussed.

No, it does not. Not buying something from someone does nothing to impede their right to free speech.

Re: BMW Overtakes Tesla in European EV Sales for First Time

#200

Post by neofrommatrix » Sat, Aug 24, 2024, 1:24 AM UTC

blackeyeblitzar wrote: post #189

anon373839 wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Funny, it reads to me like: my money should go where I see fit.

What I see is that people here and on places like Reddit seem to support expression of political views when it is for their side. They wouldn’t take issue with CEOs supporting leftist social justice issues, for example. But when it is a CEO supporting centrist or right-leaning views, they don’t support it. And not just that, but they go out of their way to manufacture outrage or signal their actions in order to suppr…

Mr. Musk is free to discuss whatever he wants to. I am free to spend my money like I want to. That’s a part of being in a democracy.

And your argument applies to the right-wing when it comes to left ideology as well. Like the Bud Light boycott.