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Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

news.patreon.com

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Re: Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

#891

Post by rpdillon »

danShumway wrote: post #607
wkat4242 wrote: post #592

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I always buy on Gog first because they really care about the user. No DRM, the ability to download safe copies in case some lawsuit happens and things get pulled out (e.g. like half the music in GTA San Andreas!). I understand you as a creator prefer steam but I wouldn't obey that, sorry. Also, reinforcing their market position is not in my best interest as a consumer.

I think you may have accidentally misread my post, or maybe I didn't word it carefully enough (in which case I apologize for the confusion). I don't prefer Steam. As a consumer, on principle in most cases I refuse to buy from it. Steam effectively punishes creators for not steering users towards their monopoly, and they have a ton of tools for user lock-in: Steam Input, Steam Workshop, etc... They may not be as egreg…

I see the parallels that you're drawing and I agree with you, but I still see major distinctions.

The biggest example I'd like to call out here is that I recently moved from Nintendo Switch to Steam Deck. I was astonished by how much the Steam Deck is just a Linux computer. And I was fully able to install Heroic Launcher, which is compatible with GOG, and install all my GOG games on my Steam Deck and have them work just fine. This is light years away from where Apple is. If Apple had anything remotely like this, I would be a customer quite quickly. But it's the lack of freedom and choice that I find so objectionable.

Re: Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

#892

Post by carlosjobim »

KingMob wrote: post #888
carlosjobim wrote: post #868

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For good reason. The web is a cess pit which people will avoid if they can.

A term which in no way also applies to apps, that have vastly more ability to spy on you, and DMCA protections against interop and modification. /s At least the spying is efficient, I guess.

The app store is also ridden with scams and crap. But the web is a horrible experience for normal people compared to apps, which the down voters here don't seem to understand, because they have adblockers etc.

Re: Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

#893

Post by pjerem »

meiraleal wrote: post #818
pjerem wrote: post #787

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Heh, Safari may lack some APIs, but it’s irrelevant for 95% of apps including Patreon. It’s not like Patreon would be unusable on iOS without an app.

It is baffling how some random people will come to Apple's defense from the most unimaginable angles. "Safari is lacking but should be enough for 95% of the apps". Why do we even have the App Store then? For the rest 5%?

I’m really not defending Apple here. I’ve always been pretty vocal against Apple practices, especially with the App Store policies.

But I do think that the situation we are in where any company have to develop an application when the web does it nice enough (and it’s especially true for products such as Patreon) is pretty ridiculous.

Of all the companies around, Patreon is one who could easily avoid this in app fee nonsense just by avoiding having an app in the first place (or at least having an app for subscribers, maybe the app is useful for content creators).

I’d totally prefer a situation where Apple wouldn’t act like dicks but by accepting this situation, Patreon is just legitimizing Apple behavior.

Re: Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

#894

Post by BillinghamJ »

GeekyBear wrote: post #874
cortesoft wrote: post #650

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> does anybody want to argue that Apple hosting the Patreon app on iOS provides more value to Patreon subscribers and creators than the existence of Patreon itself does? Well, there is a simple way to test this... just get rid of the Patreon iOS app and just use a web version. Why does patreon need its own app? Why can't it just be web based? I wish fewer companies had apps. I don't need an app for everything. I don'…

> Why does patreon need its own app? Why can't it just be web based? There is the simple solution taken by companies like Spotify and Netflix. Have a free app for users, but only accept payments through your own website. In which case, Apple doesn't get a dime.

This is actually only an option if you qualify under Apple's definition of "reader" apps - ones that are pure content-consumption, nothing interactive etc.

If you don't qualify as a "reader" app, what you're suggesting actually isn't allowed - you're _required_ to offer IAP if you provide access to the service in-app

3.1.3(b) - "may allow users to access content [...] provided those items are also available as in-app purchases within the app"

https://developer.apple.com/app-store/review/guidelines/#oth...

The app I work on is a content app, but they decided it did not qualify as a "reader" app because we had polls alongside the content, which were interactive and therefore excluded us from the definition.

Re: Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

#895

Post by judge2020 »

danShumway wrote: post #389

Another point that Patreon isn't really emphasizing here that seems relevant to any conversations about "fairness" is that Apple's fees on Patreon subscriptions in-app are now higher than Patreon's fees. It's important to recognize any time that we're talking about the market that services charge what they can, not what is fair. The market does not have a concept of fairness, only competition. This is why there is no…

> for all of the work they're putting into hosting and curating apps and for

More for creating the OS, releasing updates for free to all users, and licensing new and existing developer APIs for free to all iOS developers in perpetuity.

In lieu of their app store fee you get Unreal Engine-style licensing anyways where a percentage of your revenue becomes subject to royalties.

Re: Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

#896

Post by KingMob »

dwaite wrote: post #785
rottencupcakes wrote: post #665

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When a mobile web page uses apple pay, does it also give 30% to apple? If not, what’s the difference between it and an app?

Apple Pay and in-app purchase are different. Apple Pay is a percentage paid by the bank, not the merchant. In-app purchase is for an app being used to buy digital goods and services consumed in-app. The agreement for publishing apps says that you will give Apple a cut, and upfront purchase price and in-app purchases are how they collect it. You can’t use in-app purchases to say order dinner to be delivered.

I think you're missing the point. You're focusing on the technical differences, but it's not outlandish to imagine Apple demanding a cut of all transactions on iOS over time.

It would start slowly, with a minor value-add (e.g., making it easier to put/use CC info in the secure enclave, or whatever incremental step they choose), and an announcement that in exchange for "easing payments and making them more secure", Apple will be charging X% of transactions with their system.

Re: Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

#897

Post by JKCalhoun »

cortesoft wrote: post #650
danShumway wrote: post #389

Another point that Patreon isn't really emphasizing here that seems relevant to any conversations about "fairness" is that Apple's fees on Patreon subscriptions in-app are now higher than Patreon's fees. It's important to recognize any time that we're talking about the market that services charge what they can, not what is fair. The market does not have a concept of fairness, only competition. This is why there is no…

> does anybody want to argue that Apple hosting the Patreon app on iOS provides more value to Patreon subscribers and creators than the existence of Patreon itself does? Well, there is a simple way to test this... just get rid of the Patreon iOS app and just use a web version. Why does patreon need its own app? Why can't it just be web based? I wish fewer companies had apps. I don't need an app for everything. I don'…

> So why do companies make them? Because people spend more money when they can just use the in app purchase functionality.

I assumed it was so they could skirt around the privacy built more consistently into web browsers. Or that they are still stuck in the "There's an app for that" era that I think we have collectively left behind.

Re: Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

#898

Post by troupo »

KingMob wrote: post #889
troupo wrote: post #828

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why do we even have the App Store then? For the rest 5%? No. We have AppStore for the hundreds of thousands of apps that cannot be implemented using web tech. And for hundreds of thousands of apps that people could implement using web tech, but don't want to for various reasons, both big (too many workarounds) to small (abysmal performance for the simplest tasks)

> We have AppStore for the hundreds of thousands of apps that cannot be implemented using web tech. These are not disconnected, though. The web COULD be made to support more of these use cases, but Apple wouldn't be able to collect 30% of the profits. Safari was a laggard for many years while the App Store was being entrenched.

> The web COULD be made to support more of these use cases

No, it couldn't

> but Apple

Apple has nothing to do with the fact that the web can barely render a page of static text and images without stutter. Almost every single app made with web technologies is a slow bloated abomination barely capable of doing a few primitive things right. And those that aren't have insane amounts of effort poured into them.

If you believe that Apple has something to do with it, why isn't there a flood of amazing smooth native-like apps on Android where none of the real or perceived limitations exist? Why is there a Google Play store with hundreds of thousands of apps?

Re: Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

#899

Post by welcome_dragon »

jaza wrote: post #877

Fuck Apple. That is all.

You beat me to it. Others will say "but Apple gives us beautiful products and since the app store is theirs they have every right to charge fees like this".

Yes I understand the "overhead" of an app store but since it's required it seems sort of monopolistic practice to me

Re: Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

#900

Post by nottorp »

CivBase wrote: post #890
cortesoft wrote: post #650

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> does anybody want to argue that Apple hosting the Patreon app on iOS provides more value to Patreon subscribers and creators than the existence of Patreon itself does? Well, there is a simple way to test this... just get rid of the Patreon iOS app and just use a web version. Why does patreon need its own app? Why can't it just be web based? I wish fewer companies had apps. I don't need an app for everything. I don'…

> Why does patreon need its own app? Notifications. Performance. Responsiveness. Bandwidth. Offline access. And a lot of users simply find apps to be more convenient than browser bookmarks. I use the web interface for Patreon, but I can see why some users would want the app. Why does Apple themselves have apps for things like maps, news, stocks, weather, video chats, etc? These all rely on web services and could theo…

> Notifications.

No thanks.

> Performance. Responsiveness. Bandwidth. Offline access.

Isn't Patreon basically a web site where you can pay a subscription to ... something? Why would it need all that? Does the subscriber content get delivered through Patreon?

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