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Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

news.patreon.com

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Re: Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

#661

Post by Dylan16807 »

cortesoft wrote: post #650
danShumway wrote: post #389

Another point that Patreon isn't really emphasizing here that seems relevant to any conversations about "fairness" is that Apple's fees on Patreon subscriptions in-app are now higher than Patreon's fees. It's important to recognize any time that we're talking about the market that services charge what they can, not what is fair. The market does not have a concept of fairness, only competition. This is why there is no…

> does anybody want to argue that Apple hosting the Patreon app on iOS provides more value to Patreon subscribers and creators than the existence of Patreon itself does? Well, there is a simple way to test this... just get rid of the Patreon iOS app and just use a web version. Why does patreon need its own app? Why can't it just be web based? I wish fewer companies had apps. I don't need an app for everything. I don'…

How many of the apps you're complaining about are paying 30% to Apple? Hotels and restaurants definitely aren't.

Also a lot of companies make apps so they can get more tracking info. That value doesn't come from the Apple Store.

It's things like games that really get an advantage from being native and in the store. And that's largely a red queen's race, they need to stay on top and they'll pay out the nose to be the easiest install. Paying lots of money in a zero-sum situation doesn't mean they're getting much value in a more zoomed-out sense.

Re: Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

#662

Post by lathiat »

squigz wrote: post #630
dannyobrien wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand why Patreon has to drop the per-creation model. Can they not just not offer that on iOS, and continue it on other platforms? (Perhaps with a "convert from susbcription to per-creation" feature online?)

The per-creation model isn't even offered to new Patreon accounts, or those that have switched away from it. I'm not sure why

Because they've already been on the road to moving off of them for a while now (for this reason)

Re: Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

#663

Post by dhosek »

Dylan16807 wrote: post #661
cortesoft wrote: post #650

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> does anybody want to argue that Apple hosting the Patreon app on iOS provides more value to Patreon subscribers and creators than the existence of Patreon itself does? Well, there is a simple way to test this... just get rid of the Patreon iOS app and just use a web version. Why does patreon need its own app? Why can't it just be web based? I wish fewer companies had apps. I don't need an app for everything. I don'…

How many of the apps you're complaining about are paying 30% to Apple? Hotels and restaurants definitely aren't. Also a lot of companies make apps so they can get more tracking info. That value doesn't come from the Apple Store. It's things like games that really get an advantage from being native and in the store. And that's largely a red queen's race, they need to stay on top and they'll pay out the nose to be the…

The ability to get more tracking info comes from producing an app which in turn comes from the Apple Store. I’ve never found myself wanting to use a Patreon app instead of their website, just like I found the substack app a complete waste of space and immediately deleted it.

Not everything needs to be an app.

Re: Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

#664

Post by squigz »

lathiat wrote: post #662
squigz wrote: post #630

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The per-creation model isn't even offered to new Patreon accounts, or those that have switched away from it. I'm not sure why

Because they've already been on the road to moving off of them for a while now (for this reason)

For what reason? iOS fees? I'm not sure they're related. Patreon has been pushing away the per-creation model for many years now.

Re: Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

#665

Post by rottencupcakes »

cortesoft wrote: post #650
danShumway wrote: post #389

Another point that Patreon isn't really emphasizing here that seems relevant to any conversations about "fairness" is that Apple's fees on Patreon subscriptions in-app are now higher than Patreon's fees. It's important to recognize any time that we're talking about the market that services charge what they can, not what is fair. The market does not have a concept of fairness, only competition. This is why there is no…

> does anybody want to argue that Apple hosting the Patreon app on iOS provides more value to Patreon subscribers and creators than the existence of Patreon itself does? Well, there is a simple way to test this... just get rid of the Patreon iOS app and just use a web version. Why does patreon need its own app? Why can't it just be web based? I wish fewer companies had apps. I don't need an app for everything. I don'…

When a mobile web page uses apple pay, does it also give 30% to apple?

If not, what’s the difference between it and an app?

Re: Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

#666

Post by beeboobaa3 »

cortesoft wrote: post #650
danShumway wrote: post #389

Another point that Patreon isn't really emphasizing here that seems relevant to any conversations about "fairness" is that Apple's fees on Patreon subscriptions in-app are now higher than Patreon's fees. It's important to recognize any time that we're talking about the market that services charge what they can, not what is fair. The market does not have a concept of fairness, only competition. This is why there is no…

> does anybody want to argue that Apple hosting the Patreon app on iOS provides more value to Patreon subscribers and creators than the existence of Patreon itself does? Well, there is a simple way to test this... just get rid of the Patreon iOS app and just use a web version. Why does patreon need its own app? Why can't it just be web based? I wish fewer companies had apps. I don't need an app for everything. I don'…

> Why does patreon need its own app? Why can't it just be web based?

because apple gimps their web browser capabilities & performance to incentivize developers to enter the walled garden

Re: Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

#667

Post by Dylan16807 »

dhosek wrote: post #663
Dylan16807 wrote: post #661

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How many of the apps you're complaining about are paying 30% to Apple? Hotels and restaurants definitely aren't. Also a lot of companies make apps so they can get more tracking info. That value doesn't come from the Apple Store. It's things like games that really get an advantage from being native and in the store. And that's largely a red queen's race, they need to stay on top and they'll pay out the nose to be the…

The ability to get more tracking info comes from producing an app which in turn comes from the Apple Store. I’ve never found myself wanting to use a Patreon app instead of their website, just like I found the substack app a complete waste of space and immediately deleted it. Not everything needs to be an app.

> which in turn comes from the Apple Store

I strongly disagree with that. The store is not the reason apps are good for lots of things. You can assign a lot of value to phone and OS, but Apple does not try to take a cut based on making the phone and OS because it would be hard to defend. The store pales in comparison.

Re: Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

#668

Post by jzl »

kmeisthax wrote: post #361
dannyobrien wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand why Patreon has to drop the per-creation model. Can they not just not offer that on iOS, and continue it on other platforms? (Perhaps with a "convert from susbcription to per-creation" feature online?)

From the article: > Apple has also made clear that if creators on Patreon continue to use unsupported billing models or disable transactions in the iOS app, we will be at risk of having the entire app removed from their App Store. In other words, every Patreon creator has to be billable through iOS App Store or you get kicked off. Someone should get the FTC or EU involved. This is beyond the pale.

I could be wrong, but I think you’re misinterpreting it. They could remove all billing from the iOS app just like eg Audible does. But I’m guessing they don’t want to. Patreon is looking out for themselves, not their creators or subscribers.

Re: Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

#669

Post by jzl »

Manuel_D wrote: post #488
input_sh wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple forbids even mentioning alternative payment methods within the app.

I think that's changed: https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2024/01/apple-lets-devs-... . > However, the rulings established that Apple's so-called "anti-steering" rules—language prohibiting developers from mentioning cheaper or alternative purchasing options that might be available outside of an app—were anticompetitive. > Apple has updated its App Store rules to allow developers to provide external links to other p…

Yes but then they get to charge a commission for anyone following the link.

Re: Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

#670

Post by danShumway »

Retric wrote: post #655
danShumway wrote: post #389

Another point that Patreon isn't really emphasizing here that seems relevant to any conversations about "fairness" is that Apple's fees on Patreon subscriptions in-app are now higher than Patreon's fees. It's important to recognize any time that we're talking about the market that services charge what they can, not what is fair. The market does not have a concept of fairness, only competition. This is why there is no…

Not all parties to a transaction provide value to everyone in a transaction. A union, lawyer, real estate agent, etc is optimizing value for one party but not both. As long as one side of a transaction has a monopoly you can end up with “middlemen” favoring the side that picks them, thus why Ticketmaster still exists. Patroon is chosen by content creators not customers as such its goal is creating value for content c…

Does Apple's change do anything at all to help alleviate any of the concerns you have?

You have fewer subscriptions options for creators (1st-of-month billing and per-release billing is going away, despite the fact that creators regularly use them to simplify the experience for subscribers). You're going to pay more (I promise you, creators on Patreon are not rich enough to swallow a 30% transaction fee on iOS subscriptions). You're going to use the same app that you were using before. And this will change nothing about when Patreon cuts off service when you unsubscribe (incidentally, I'm pretty sure this is a creator decision and creators can choose to extend benefits to the end of the month).

What is Apple doing that is making any of this better for you?

Maybe you sort-of marginally have an easier time unsubscribing? But it's not hard to unsubscribe from a Patreon tier, and it's difficult to argue that Apple is providing infinite value by organizing your subscriptions into a list.

What are you actually paying this fee to Apple for? They're "on your side" except in the sense where them being on your side creates any tangible or significant change in your experience using Patreon. Seriously, what about the iOS experience using Patreon is better (or even different) than the experience elsewhere?

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