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Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

news.patreon.com

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Re: Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

#621

Post by lapcat »

ksec wrote: post #615
lapcat wrote: post #599

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a very strange analogy. I didn't buy my credit card. I don't own it. The credit card is just a little piece of plastic, totally useless without the line of credit, i.e, the service provided by the credit card company, in stark contrast with my computers, which can be used quite extensively without the App Store. The credit card company is not gatekeeping "access" to me. I can pay for things with cash, a debit…

>This is a very strange analogy. You can be both an Amex and a Visa card Customer. You can also be an iPhone and Android Customer at the same time as well. As well as a web user. Amex charges higher fees, and offer specific services to their customer base.

> You can be both an Amex and a Visa card Customer.

Yes, which supports my point.

> You can also be an iPhone and Android Customer at the same time as well.

Who does this? Barely anyone. Most people can't afford to buy two smartphones, and even if you could afford two, why in the world would you use two of them simultaneously? That sounds extremely inconvenient, for no apparent benefit. Practically speaking, a smartphone is an exclusive relationship; you pick one at a time.

Yours is such a bizarre hypothetical.

In any case, the crucial difference is that a smartphone is a product of independent value that you can buy, whereas a credit card is not. The piece of plastic is just a container for your credit card number, a means of accessing the service, a line of credit.

Re: Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

#622

Post by ncr100 »

ncr100 wrote: post #131
ThrowawayTestr wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're able, my artist friend has had a lot of success running their own site and doing their own payments through PayPal.

Am I misunderstanding, that PayPal can workaround Apple's payment rules which Patreon is complying with?

Meta:

So the negative point value, currently -1, tells me that I am asking a rhetorical question and I should have said that I'm asking a rhetorical question.

Back on topic:

I am an expert on in-app purchases circa 2020 and do know that there's no working around it unless you have a deal with Apple. Used to be my job.

Paypal or any other financial transaction entity Is all the same to Apple, the user is sending their money while using an apple hosted app, and apple wants to make sure that users don't get fleeced! So Apple taxes those transactions ostensibly to provide oversight Services.

So the only way for patreon to get around this is to not mention in their app that you can also sign up on you know patreon.com To give money, and to allow users who have signed up and sent money on patreon.com to use the iOS app.

Re: Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

#623

Post by danShumway »

Terretta wrote: post #608
danShumway wrote: post #554

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're suggesting that Steam doesn't have an effective monopoly on the PC market, I have bad news for you. One of the biggest differences between Steam and Apple is that Steam does a better job of hiding the effects from users who will lash out at creators who talk about problems on the platform. An indie creator I follow recently implored fans to buy their next game on Steam and not other platforms... because in…

> If you're suggesting that Steam doesn't have an effective monopoly on the PC market, I have bad news for you. Not what I'm suggesting. In fact, you're making my case beautifully. I'm agreeing that the PC being "open" isn't what makes the difference. People are barking up the wrong tree. Your argument is much as the one I made elsewhere in this thread for why there's Amazon when there's Alibaba, and Amazon can charg…

Apologies, I misunderstood what you were saying. Generally good reminder to me to regularly take a step back and try to figure out when I'm reading more into a comment than what was intended.

> I'm agreeing that the PC being "open" isn't what makes the difference.

This is a good point, but I do think the "open" part is possibly a pre-condition to making a difference. But that's kind of squabbling over details, I completely agree that iOS being open to sideloading would not be enough to change the dynamics.

And we know this because... well, Android exists. Android is a really good example of how sideloading is great and something that I love, but also not sufficient on its own to curb anti-competitive behavior.

Re: Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

#624

Post by danShumway »

Terretta wrote: post #579
danShumway wrote: post #559

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Apple isn't being doing anything bad, they're just like the music industry" is a heck of an argument to make. Do you think the average person would argue that the music industry isn't exploitative?

I didn't make that argument.

Fair enough, we might be aggressively agreeing with each other. Apologies if I misunderstood you.

Re: Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

#625

Post by mvdtnz »

egypturnash wrote: post #493
jprete wrote: post #10

I remember reading that per-creation billing is a very important feature for Patreon creators, because it removes the moral obligation to produce content just to justify a subscription. If Patreon really doesn't want to kill the feature itself, but is just responding to Apple's enforcement, then it seems like a really clear illustration of monopoly power - pushing unrelated markets to change their own structure and p…

Patreon has been trying to kill it for like half the time I've been using Patreon. They haven't offered it as an option for new campaigns for years, and their last redesign completely removed what little data was available in the web UI - you wanna know how much money you can expect? Download a CSV and do it yourself, we can't be bothered to give you even the simplest data of "your next three posts will be worth $x,…

We can't know if they wanted to kill it because of Apple or for some other reason. I don't see why they would want to kill it if it weren't for Apple.

Re: Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

#626

Post by gus_massa »

danShumway wrote: post #389

Another point that Patreon isn't really emphasizing here that seems relevant to any conversations about "fairness" is that Apple's fees on Patreon subscriptions in-app are now higher than Patreon's fees. It's important to recognize any time that we're talking about the market that services charge what they can, not what is fair. The market does not have a concept of fairness, only competition. This is why there is no…

One important feature is that in the Apple store the consumer is sure that the unsubscribe button works immediately. Not weird tricks to keep you subscribed forever.

Re: Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

#627

Post by ok_dad »

I suppose they should stop trying to push me into their app then? Every time I visit their site, I have to ignore several messages about how it would be easier to do this in the Patreon app. It’s a mess they could avoid by sticking to a web based app. It still sucks for the creators who relied on them to avoid issues like this.

Re: Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

#628

Post by ksec »

611 comments and not a single mentioned yet.

I am not familiar with Patreon on iOS but Why is it Patreon only get charged 30% now, and not previously. After all their competitor also have 30% requirement for a long time, so Patreon had been the special case all these years?

It is unfortunate Google isn't even competing hard. Microsoft doesn't seems to be interested in Mobile any time soon.

Re: Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

#629

Post by jobigoud »

genpfault wrote: post #374
aftbit wrote: post #295

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah okay, that's fine then. I'll just keep using the per-creation model. I don't use Apple hardware so I won't even notice the change.

> I'll just keep using the per-creation model. Until Patreon takes it away: > As a result of Apple’s mandates and in order to make sure that you can continue getting new members in the iOS app, we've started a 16-month-long migration process to bring all creators onto subscription billing by November 2025, supported by a roadmap of new features and tools to make sure the billing model works for you, your community, a…

Damn, that's really disappointing. I publish a Windows-only open source software, I don't care about the iOS app. Why should this have any impact on my project?

I'm fine with my page not being available from the iOS app at all. Why do they have to remove this payment model from every other platforms? It makes no sense.

OK I read this in their FAQ about this:

> You will maintain control over how frequently your members are billed. By default, members are billed monthly, but creators will also be able to offer less frequent billing options, like annual billing, to reduce the pressure to produce something new for fans on a monthly basis. We’re also committed to maintaining the ability to pause billing when you need to take a break.

Yearly billing seems better for me I think.

Re: Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

#630

Post by squigz »

dannyobrien wrote: post #248
bkraz wrote: post #80

As a longtime YouTube creator who uses Patreon for financial support, the news is terrible: Patreon informed me that all creators must switch to a monthly subscription schedule instead of the per-creation schedule that I and many other currently use. The whole point of per-creation is that it allows me to take time off, and only charge people when I release something, thus incentivizing me, and being fair to my suppo…

I don't understand why Patreon has to drop the per-creation model. Can they not just not offer that on iOS, and continue it on other platforms? (Perhaps with a "convert from susbcription to per-creation" feature online?)

The per-creation model isn't even offered to new Patreon accounts, or those that have switched away from it. I'm not sure why
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