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Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

news.patreon.com

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Re: Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

#571

Post by makeitdouble »

theturtle32 wrote: post #302
cyrnel wrote: post #275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Customers leave when prices rise above their willingness to pay. Some customers will realize on their own that they can bypass Apple's fee by subscribing through the browser, but most won't (since Apple forbids even mentioning this trick).

This, imo is a solid argument for "fine then, we're just gonna pull our app and use mobile web exclusively."

Perhaps, although that requires experimenting the new fee model first.

It's too big of a decision to take without actual numbers, and having gone through it for a few months also helps on the communication side: on the surface Patreon at least gave it a try, and there's even a chance users are pissed off enough by the new model to campaign for that change and defend the move to their fans.

Re: Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

#572

Post by danShumway »

maximus-decimus wrote: post #565
danShumway wrote: post #554

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're suggesting that Steam doesn't have an effective monopoly on the PC market, I have bad news for you. One of the biggest differences between Steam and Apple is that Steam does a better job of hiding the effects from users who will lash out at creators who talk about problems on the platform. An indie creator I follow recently implored fans to buy their next game on Steam and not other platforms... because in…

A huge difference is Steam doesn't come pre-installed on your computers nor does it block you from installing other game managers.

Fair point.

I do think Steam is engaged in anti-competitive behavior, but that doesn't mean they're the full equivalent of the app store. And we can see on the PC market the large number of indie games that very literally would not exist if PCs were locked into only using Steam.

My point here is more that Steam is not really a good argument for justifying a pricing model. But it's a good clarification that in many ways Steam has "only" mostly locked down the PC gaming market, where Apple has gone further and locked down the actual software that can be loaded onto the phone.

Re: Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

#573

Post by fuzztester »

lapcat wrote: post #551
DataDive wrote: post #519

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> does anybody want to argue that Apple hosting the Patreon app on iOS provides more value to Patreon subscribers and creators than the existence of Patreon itself does? There is a video link on the page from the original post where the Patreon CEO explains and reiterates the issues. Notably, at one point, he says that Apple Platform brings in the most money to Patreon. So there, looks like Apple brings in the money…

> So there, looks like Apple brings in the money for Patreon. Apple users bring in the money for Patreon. I own an iPhone. I am not Apple, and Apple does not own me. Why should Apple be able to charge money for "access" to me, as if I were a prostitute and Apple my pimp? I'm simply using a computer, which I paid for.

>I own an iPhone. I am not Apple, and Apple does not own me. Why should Apple be able to charge money for "access" to me, as if I were a prostitute and Apple my pimp? I'm simply using a computer, which I paid for.

really solid point. they shouldn't be able to.

Re: Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

#574

Post by prmoustache »

DataDive wrote: post #519
danShumway wrote: post #389

Another point that Patreon isn't really emphasizing here that seems relevant to any conversations about "fairness" is that Apple's fees on Patreon subscriptions in-app are now higher than Patreon's fees. It's important to recognize any time that we're talking about the market that services charge what they can, not what is fair. The market does not have a concept of fairness, only competition. This is why there is no…

> does anybody want to argue that Apple hosting the Patreon app on iOS provides more value to Patreon subscribers and creators than the existence of Patreon itself does? There is a video link on the page from the original post where the Patreon CEO explains and reiterates the issues. Notably, at one point, he says that Apple Platform brings in the most money to Patreon. So there, looks like Apple brings in the money…

If you can afford an iphone, you can afford sending money to a number of random strangers without seeing a blip in your monthly budget. That is pretty much the reality.

Re: Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

#575

Post by lmm »

xyst wrote: post #478
danShumway wrote: post #389

Another point that Patreon isn't really emphasizing here that seems relevant to any conversations about "fairness" is that Apple's fees on Patreon subscriptions in-app are now higher than Patreon's fees. It's important to recognize any time that we're talking about the market that services charge what they can, not what is fair. The market does not have a concept of fairness, only competition. This is why there is no…

It’s time for tech (not just Apple) to be broken up. If only we haven’t defanged the regulatory agencies …

Nah, just Apple. Whenever any other tech company tries bullshit like this, alternatives pop up and people switch to them. When Apple tries it people make excuses for them.

Re: Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

#576

Post by fuzztester »

ToucanLoucan wrote: post #524
DataDive wrote: post #519

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> does anybody want to argue that Apple hosting the Patreon app on iOS provides more value to Patreon subscribers and creators than the existence of Patreon itself does? There is a video link on the page from the original post where the Patreon CEO explains and reiterates the issues. Notably, at one point, he says that Apple Platform brings in the most money to Patreon. So there, looks like Apple brings in the money…

> Importantly at one point he says that Apple lpatform brings in the most money to Patreon. I'm not surprised. The dirty little secret people won't talk about is that monetizing anything is so much easier on iOS because Apple users have, in some combination, more disposable income to offer, and are more willing to spend money. This has been the elephant in the room for my entire career, almost 11 years working in app…

>The dirty little secret people won't talk about is that monetizing anything is so much easier on iOS because Apple users have, in some combination, more disposable income to offer, and are more willing to spend money.

That fact is neither dirty nor secret. I know you were using a figure of speech, but still. Everyone knows it.

>This has been the elephant in the room for my entire career, almost 11 years working in apps. Monetizing on Apple is easier. Getting Apple users to put down money for good software is easier, and Apple users will pay more for the software they want.

That's also pretty obvious, and likely because Apple users, whether mobile or computer, tend to spend more per capita on hardware than Windows or Linux users, simply because Apple hardware is more expensive.

It was already true on desktop, before laptop, and before mobile, on Apple devices.

Re: Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

#577

Post by Dracophoenix »

Waterluvian wrote: post #472
AmericanChopper wrote: post #467

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't like this action form Apple, but I don't agree with your assessment of market economics here. The problem with "fairness" is that there is no objective measure of it. Everybody evaluates fairness according to how it aligns with their own personal interests. This is one of the key problems a free market economy solves. Price discovery is the intersection of what somebody's willing to sell something for, and wh…

Would this view conclude that there should never be regulation of any sort? Or is there possibly a level of “fairness” that’s evident to the average person?

Regulation is itself neither objective nor fair. Additionally, regulation is not immune from market pressures as the legal environments and incentives they create are also subject to competition. No nation-state has a monopoly on hospitable business environments.

Fairness at its most objective is merely a process. It's not and should not be proselytized as a guarantee of equal outcomes irrespective of circumstances.

> Or is there possibly a level of “fairness” that’s evident to the average person?

The "average person" does not exist and thus doesn't have an opinion representative of an arbitrary individual or group of individuals. A rational flesh-and-blood person can only speak for himself.

Re: Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

#578

Post by TheKarateKid »

nomel wrote: post #537
TheKarateKid wrote: post #490

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Funny how UX only matters to Apple when it doesn't cost them $$

They added "in app purchases" indicators in the store for this. I use it all the time. "In app purchases" on something that claims it's free is not free.

Apple's longstanding App Store guidelines always forced a certain level of "quality" and good customer experience, yet they're now allowing apps that are the exact opposite.

Most of these apps use dark UX patterns to trick new users into scammy free trials which convert to $100+/yr subscriptions after 1-3 days. These apps also make it difficult to close out of the subscription window, or make it seem like you have to subscribe when you don't.

It's entirely contradictory to everything Apple once stood for in justifying their gatekeeper App Store experience.

Apple could easily ban these types of scammy UX patterns, but they won't because it benefits them. That's my point.

Re: Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

#579

Post by Terretta »

danShumway wrote: post #559
Terretta wrote: post #550

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Does anybody want to argue that Apple hosting the Patreon app on iOS provides more value to Patreon subscribers and creators than the existence of Patreon itself does? This isn't a Creators/Patreon/Apple phenomenon, this is a consumers/distributors/(publishers|labels)/creators phenomenon. See page 12: https://articles.unesco.org/creativity/sites/default/files/m...

"Apple isn't being doing anything bad, they're just like the music industry" is a heck of an argument to make. Do you think the average person would argue that the music industry isn't exploitative?

I didn't make that argument.

Re: Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

#580

Post by joemi »

diggan wrote: post #306

[flagged]

It really seems like the obvious solution. I can't believe that they haven't considered it, so then that would mean they _did_ consider it and decided that it's better for them to do what they're doing and just blame any issues on Apple. Doesn't seem right to make Apple out to be the bad guy when Patreon made a shrewd business decision at the expense of the creators.
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