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Why doesn't advice work?

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Re: Why doesn't advice work?

#221

Post by intended »

squigz wrote: post #219
efitz wrote: post #183

Hard lessons I've learned: 1. It doesn't matter what your title is, how much expert education, training, or experience you have, or even what hard lessons that you have learned: you are not an "expert" in an area unless you are invited in as an "expert". Put another way, unsolicited advice is unwelcome. 2. Smart people want to solve their own problems. Don't offer solutions. No one will feel empowered or much of a se…

Unpacking #3 is fun. Like, yeah, often times people (not just spouses) want to vent, not receive actual advice. But "their mental model is wrong and they don't care to correct it"? That's unfair. Maybe they're just tired? Maybe your own mental model isn't the only correct one? > even though it interrupted you and they could have fixed it themself. Oh no, not being interrupted by having to help your partner!

I think #3 is self deprecating .

It’s clear this person has burnt their hand, and learned from it !

Re: Why doesn't advice work?

#222

Post by andrei_says_ »

ryanmcbride wrote: post #98

The rules I have for myself when giving advice are: 1. Unsolicited advice is always criticism. 2. LISTEN TO THEIR ACTUAL PROBLEM ALL THE WAY. 3. Never tell someone what they should do, tell them what you would do in that situation. 4. Remember that the purpose of giving advice is just to illuminate options, not to have someone follow what you recommend to the letter. 5. As the advice giver understand that you could b…

These are gold. Worth a printout next to the monitor. Especially number one.

Re: Why doesn't advice work?

#223

Post by bsoles »

I find that people most eager to give unsolicited advice are people who are least equipped to give good advice. And people who need good advice the most are people who are least equipped to receive it. And it turns out that the same person can have both deficiencies; a version of Dunning-Kruger might be in effect here.

Re: Why doesn't advice work?

#224

Post by intended »

meken wrote: post #140
throwawayq3423 wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Never tell someone what they should do, tell them what you would do in that situation. This is great. It's empathetic and much more likely to be heard and received.

I often find myself taking this approach, but it’s still manipulative because it’s just me masking the fact that I’m really just trying to tell them what to do.

I think you have a lot to unpack here, for yourself.

You seem to have set up two purposes in conflict with each other.

On one hand you are telling people what to do, nicely.

On the other, you recognize the intent of such a statement is to share an experience to see if it fits their situation.

The only person who can know the difference, most of the time, is you.

After all, If your statement is helpful, people will use it.

So is it an issue of you being insincere ? Or is it an issue if you being confused if you are being helpful but in reality coercive ?

If it’s insincerity, then do what makes you happier with your statements.

If it’s coercive, then give people a choice - let them know your concerns, ensure that they have all the information to own the choice.

Re: Why doesn't advice work?

#225

Post by throwawayq3423 »

syndicatedjelly wrote: post #74
pixl97 wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The trick is suggesting something to a person in a manner so they thought they came up with the idea itself.

Seriously, this was like the biggest epiphany I had out of my 20s. The way to convince anyone of anything isn’t to beat them over the head into submission. It’s to drop the idea off casually, let them ignore it for a while, and watch them slowly come around to this strange idea sitting around that actually seems to work…

The way i've heard this described is "place your truth, gently, next to theirs". Then walk away. No pressure, no sales, nothing. That's the only way it can be adopted.

Re: Why doesn't advice work?

#226

Post by throwawayq3423 »

csours wrote: post #55
daniel-thompson wrote: post #21

I think it's a pretty simple, and timeless, aspect of human nature: "People are generally better persuaded by the reasons which they have themselves discovered than by those which have come into the mind of others." - Blaise Pascal, 1670

Stories are more real than facts.

Stories are understood better than facts.

Re: Why doesn't advice work?

#227

Post by throwawayq3423 »

OnionBlender wrote: post #111
firefoxd wrote: post #61

When I was leaving for America, my aunt pulled me aside and had a serious talk with me. "Be very careful," she ended. My thoughts? She was jealous that I was going to America and not her kids. I had just turned 18. But then, I found myself depressed, disappointed, and betrayed in the US. I thought of her advice. "Be very careful." I knew i needed to be careful, I wanted to be careful. But what does being careful mean…

What does "be very careful" even mean? Be careful of what? That's so vague to be completely unhelpful.

I had the same thought, what does that mean?

Re: Why doesn't advice work?

#228

Post by lmm »

Jensson wrote: post #169
dakiol wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So many people up here thinking there is always 1 exactly right course of action! Why?! Why do so many otherwise smart people fall back to the silliest of binary thinking and heuristics? I was one of those. I know the answer: I wasn't/I'm not that intelligent. I learnt that being technically right is not as important as I thought (and I also learnt to care less about it specially when I'm surrounded by other techni…

> I learnt that being technically right is not as important as I thought Only in discussions, whenever you do anything being right is the most important thing as doing the wrong thing is just contra productive, being right saves a massive amount of time and work.

> Only in discussions, whenever you do anything being right is the most important thing as doing the wrong thing is just contra productive, being right saves a massive amount of time and work.

Maybe, maybe not. Sometimes doing it the way people expect will be better for future maintenance. Sometimes doing it the way that makes your boss look good will be better for you. All interesting decisions are close and uncertain.

Re: Why doesn't advice work?

#229

Post by bentcorner »

screye wrote: post #195

> advice is incomplete without lived experience. This bit is usually the crux. It's not about your lived experience, but it has to be some lived experience that's felt viscerally. It can be your own, it can be in 2nd second person. It's about the feeling it drives. Not so much the frame/POV. Good advice is visceral, limited, targeted and helps get the person to the immediate next 'better' state. In military parlance,…

I tell my kids this - you can tell people till you're blue in the face that there's an alligator in the river, and a surprising number of people will ignore you until they themselves see an alligator in the river.

It's just how people are. It is very hard to learn from other people's mistakes.

Re: Why doesn't advice work?

#230

Post by wdh505 »

makeitdouble wrote: post #216
efitz wrote: post #183

Hard lessons I've learned: 1. It doesn't matter what your title is, how much expert education, training, or experience you have, or even what hard lessons that you have learned: you are not an "expert" in an area unless you are invited in as an "expert". Put another way, unsolicited advice is unwelcome. 2. Smart people want to solve their own problems. Don't offer solutions. No one will feel empowered or much of a se…

> 3. Your spouse just wants to vent, UNLESS they say "fix it" Or talk to your spouse, get to know them, and build a sense of what they absolutely need to know (e.g. you don't want or can't spend the rest of your life doing it for them and no one else will), what they don't need to care about, and what space of mind they're in. You're hopefully stuck with them for a very long time, investing time and effort to underst…

Have you heard of the 6 geniuses? It is a book that proposes that there are 6 areas of "managing" one's self and others, and some are areas of genius and some are areas of frustration and some are competencies.

The book also proposes that spouses who are compatible tend to have complimentary areas of genius and frustration.

More to your point: if someone has an area of frustration to discern what course of action will fix, and you have that as an area of genius, then be kind about it as you probably got married because there are other ways you complement each other.

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