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Why doesn't advice work?

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Re: Why doesn't advice work?

#161

Post by lazide »

gedy wrote: post #107
pdimitar wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Will second that many times. As a fairly proactive guy who almost never leaves any loose ends in his relationships, I overdid giving the advice and some people started avoiding me. I was bitter about it until I realized they did not want their problem fixed, they sought sympathy. Nothing wrong with that, it's just that my mind immediately jumps to potential solutions. But I was severely humbled on that front after I…

> until I realized they did not want their problem fixed, they sought sympathy. That goes both ways, as many of the people I've run into who just want sympathy, can bring a lot of stress on the listeners. E.g. I can't take hearing complaints about abusive partners, etc so that they feel a little better for the moment, then they march right back to them. Growing up with a serious complainer caused me to instinctively…

Yup. Sometimes all the listening is doing is enabling a very dangerous situation.

If someone is the recipient of that kind of complaining as a kid from a parent, it would also explain some ‘don’t even try that towards me’ reactions.

Re: Why doesn't advice work?

#162

Post by throwawayq3423 »

meken wrote: post #140
throwawayq3423 wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Never tell someone what they should do, tell them what you would do in that situation. This is great. It's empathetic and much more likely to be heard and received.

I often find myself taking this approach, but it’s still manipulative because it’s just me masking the fact that I’m really just trying to tell them what to do.

> manipulative

It's not manipulative to use techniques that increase the chances of your advice being heard and followed, it's just good communication.

Re: Why doesn't advice work?

#163

Post by throwaway22032 »

lazide wrote: post #152
kayodelycaon wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

ODD has some really questionable aspects. Especially considering half of children diagnosed with it are also ADHD. I highly suspect the issue is more with the authority figures not knowing how to handle neurodivergence than the children themselves. Many people tend to do the opposite of what they are told to do. In an individualist culture, this is normal.

A step back - I’d consider the possibility too that it’s a learned behavior where they have received enough pain in the past doing what they were told, so literally have been conditioned to do the opposite of what they were told. And/or, never got attention or positive feedback when doing what they were told - but got lots of attention when they did what they were told not to do. Not necessarily positive, but somethi…

As someone who has some of the traits this is absolutely it.

When you spend your childhood being told by people to do things that will lead to, well, almost certainly being poor and having a shit life, you learn to just ignore advice and do the opposite.

It is really hard to unlearn this in adulthood. I tend to get by by judging the person giving the advice e.g. if they seem successful then they are more likely to be correct than if they are not.

Re: Why doesn't advice work?

#164

Post by kelseyfrog »

gedy wrote: post #107
pdimitar wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Will second that many times. As a fairly proactive guy who almost never leaves any loose ends in his relationships, I overdid giving the advice and some people started avoiding me. I was bitter about it until I realized they did not want their problem fixed, they sought sympathy. Nothing wrong with that, it's just that my mind immediately jumps to potential solutions. But I was severely humbled on that front after I…

> until I realized they did not want their problem fixed, they sought sympathy. That goes both ways, as many of the people I've run into who just want sympathy, can bring a lot of stress on the listeners. E.g. I can't take hearing complaints about abusive partners, etc so that they feel a little better for the moment, then they march right back to them. Growing up with a serious complainer caused me to instinctively…

Absolutely. No one can listen or provide sympathy indefinitely. Trying to is a short path to burnout. Almost everyone could benefit from being listened to, but I have to remember, it doesn't always have to be me

Re: Why doesn't advice work?

#165

Post by kayodelycaon »

lazide wrote: post #152
kayodelycaon wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

ODD has some really questionable aspects. Especially considering half of children diagnosed with it are also ADHD. I highly suspect the issue is more with the authority figures not knowing how to handle neurodivergence than the children themselves. Many people tend to do the opposite of what they are told to do. In an individualist culture, this is normal.

A step back - I’d consider the possibility too that it’s a learned behavior where they have received enough pain in the past doing what they were told, so literally have been conditioned to do the opposite of what they were told. And/or, never got attention or positive feedback when doing what they were told - but got lots of attention when they did what they were told not to do. Not necessarily positive, but somethi…

I happen to agree. You can very easily train a child with a compatible personality or disability into an ODD diagnosis.

Re: Why doesn't advice work?

#166

Post by Jensson »

throwawayq3423 wrote: post #162
meken wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I often find myself taking this approach, but it’s still manipulative because it’s just me masking the fact that I’m really just trying to tell them what to do.

> manipulative It's not manipulative to use techniques that increase the chances of your advice being heard and followed, it's just good communication.

Depends on your motives, people would absolutely call it manipulative if your motives were to make their lives worse to benefit yourself. Advice aren't always good for people.

Re: Why doesn't advice work?

#167

Post by fragmede »

resource_waste wrote: post #60
Craighead wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

these people are boring, words spent talking about nothing is akin to throwing fresh food away, I'm not a psychologist and I have my own problems, why should I have to listen to others drone on about nothing when we could be working together to fix either or both of our issues.

I agree. My wife basically never gives people feedback unless its positive. She is a people pleaser, popular, all that stuff. No one asks her for advice. I am much more controversial. I have to ignore emails and text messages of people asking for advice because it happens too much. (I'm busy with my own life, the people asking for advice are low-mid tier and wont follow it, people are asking for my expertise for free…

Fascinating. Can you say more about that? How did you find them and vet them?

Re: Why doesn't advice work?

#168

Post by fragmede »

nox101 wrote: post #151
rdtsc wrote: post #19

> And for producers of advice: Step 0 I think should be "maybe don't give advice". You want to help, you think you're really good, you think it will improve things, but that's not how other people see it. They may seem like they need advice or seem like they are asking for it between the lines, but they just really want to unload or chit chat, or share some difficulty. The answer to that is sometimes to listen and no…

My daughter said she's planning on going to try heroin, fentanyl, and meth this weekend with some friends. Should I give her advice?

You’re not actually a parent, are you?

Re: Why doesn't advice work?

#169

Post by Jensson »

dakiol wrote: post #123
sqeaky wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depends on context. If someone just needs the emotional energy to get back into the fight then a compliment is often what is needed. If someone is about to do something imminently that you see a correctable fault with and they don't then pointing it out is likely correct. So many people up here thinking there is always 1 exactly right course of action! Why?! Why do so many otherwise smart people fall back to the sill…

> So many people up here thinking there is always 1 exactly right course of action! Why?! Why do so many otherwise smart people fall back to the silliest of binary thinking and heuristics? I was one of those. I know the answer: I wasn't/I'm not that intelligent. I learnt that being technically right is not as important as I thought (and I also learnt to care less about it specially when I'm surrounded by other techni…

> I learnt that being technically right is not as important as I thought

Only in discussions, whenever you do anything being right is the most important thing as doing the wrong thing is just contra productive, being right saves a massive amount of time and work.

Re: Why doesn't advice work?

#170

Post by yibg »

throwawayq3423 wrote: post #126
tunesmith wrote: post #124

I've had a few experiences where someone asked for advice, and I shared something very earnestly, come to find out much later that the part of the advice that really stuck with them was some extraneous point of mine that was completely tangential to what I was being so earnest about. I've also had a few experiences where someone gave me repeated advice that I rejected several times previous, until it finally "clicked…

Advice is tied to the individual giving it. What worked for them might work for you, but it worked given their circumstances, not yours.

The article touches on this too, from personal experience it seems like the likelihood of someone taking advice depends on both sides:

- How good is the advice? specific > generic, personalized > general, actionable > not actionable, objective > biased etc, from someone knowledgeable > random person with no specific knowledge / expertise in the subject.

- How receptive is the person receiving the advise? Was the advise unsolicited? Did the person ask because they want to confirm what they already think or are they actually looking for advise they can consider? Do they trust the person (both in intent and knowledge)?

Ironically some times the advise I ignore the most are from those that are closest to me. Family, close friends etc. I know they have my best interest at heart and they might be knowledgeable about the subject and know me so have an understanding of what I want / don't want. But they're biased, so the advise tend to be tainted.

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