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The workers have spoken: They're staying home

computerworld.com

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Re: The workers have spoken: They're staying home

#231

Post by johnnyanmac »

andrepd wrote: post #180
SoftTalker wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The majority of people can't rely on biking. They're too old, too fat, the weather is bad, or too hot, or too cold, they're going too far, or they have to take two kids somewhere and pick up groceries, etc. If biking works for you, where you are, great. But it's at best a pretty small part of the solution.

You're looking at it wrong. The mere fact that you have to chauffer your kids around everywhere until they're old enough to drive is a consequence of the fact that everything revolves around the car , as is the fact that you have to shop on a big box 10 miles away instead of walking 5mins to the store. In the Netherlands kids bike everywhere with their friends, because it's safe and comfortable to do so. If they want…

glad the Netherlands are nice like that. I'm in Los Angeles and it's dangerous living downtown with kids. Even if things are walkable I would never let my theoretical kids walk around on the streets. There's a lot more than urban planning that needs to be fixed before a walkable city becomes a reality here.

Re: The workers have spoken: They're staying home

#232

Post by johnnyanmac »

jspash wrote: post #70
RiverCrochet wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not picky about the solution and of course it's a complex issue. - If a safe, reliable bus or train went to and from close to my house to close to the office, I'd take it. Key is safe and reliable. - If the roads were designed with enough capacity and planning in mind such that groups of vehicles are not stuck driving 15 MPH on a 70 MPH speed limit stretch of highway for 30 minutes or longer every day, that'd be…

I'm just curious, what about your local bus and/or train is not safe? Do you mean it could crash at any moment? Or it is usually full of unsavoury characters?

Homeless people in my area (LA). I don't blame them individually at all, it's a societal issue that some at best got kicked out of their living spaces when rent doubled in the last 5 years. Or at worst were fed fentanyl and had their lives ruined just to line the pockets of some skeevy "medical company" (thank goodness they are having the books thrown at them).

But regardless of fault, they aren't mostly just some people down on luck that at best ask for some change like in my childhood. enough are dangerous, unpredictable, and mentally unwell that public transportation is a non-trivial risk here.

Re: The workers have spoken: They're staying home

#233

Post by johnnyanmac »

gedy wrote: post #28
nemomarx wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think they're right to complain that cities should be fixing that by building the public transportation more?

Or, heaven forbid, make living near office affordable.

ironically enough, if living near the office was affordable then there wouldn't be so many RTO mandates. Real estate are on their death throes trying to recover their tax deals over this

Re: The workers have spoken: They're staying home

#234

Post by johnnyanmac »

surgical_fire wrote: post #194
lifeisstillgood wrote: post #34

I would be interested to hear from Indian, Philipino or other off- near- shore locations. Is this “give me WFH or give me death” actually just USA/European entitlement and Chennai Devs will gleefully work in air-conditioned offices (hopefully not open plan cubicle hell but nicely designed “WeWork-like” places) and discover the turbo-charge of a co-located mission locked team? Are we Western Devs about to learn a very…

This bullshit again? Outsourcing is nothing new. Companies have been outsourcing jobs to cheaper locations for longer than I have been working. In fact, my first job was as cheap outsourced labor. This comes and goes in waves, because outsourcing to cheaper locations have a lot of downsides too.

it comes in waves, but it might be a longer wave given the pandemic forcing companies to actually get good remote work pipelines.

Re: The workers have spoken: They're staying home

#235

Post by johnnyanmac »

cweagans wrote: post #165
TechDebtDevin wrote: post #157

Unpopular opinion: Being an extrovert but living alone and working thirty feet from your bedroom is hell.

_Companies_ largely don't need people to be in-office, but if _you_ need to be in an office setting, why not find a coworking space?

given the current economy, you don't always have a choice in what environment you want to work for. Some RTO as a compromise for not finding good remote work, so I'm sure it goes the other way around, especially in a non-tech hub.

Re: The workers have spoken: They're staying home

#236

Post by johnnyanmac »

atomicnumber3 wrote: post #164
lifeisstillgood wrote: post #20

My problem is that I quite like working with other people. It’s really hard to build relationships with other human beings when not in the same physical location- sharing jokes, lunches, walks and just shouting across the room about the weird code change . It’s vital. Most large companies think that as they are hiring “the best from around the world” that leaving them around the world is fine. Look leaving people on…

"It’s really hard to build relationships with other human beings when not in the same physical location- sharing jokes, lunches, walks and just shouting across the room about the weird code change " see here's the thing that has me scratching my head. I talk to my coworkers WAY more now that we're not all just sitting in our offices or in the open work area with headphones on. and get this, I can screenshot! and scre…

>I talk to my coworkers WAY more now that we're not all just sitting in our offices or in the open work area with headphones on

it will ultimately vary on the workers. There were some people on slightly different teams but in close proximity pre-pandemic that I talked with every day (even planning some personal projects on the side). Then the pandemic came and I never heard from them again, despite technically being a ping away. my team slack channel during the pandemic was still faily lax, meanwhile the other team's slack channel went eerily silent.

maybe this will be a non-issue as more Gen Z workers grow up, but I definietly had a different experience from you.

Re: The workers have spoken: They're staying home

#237

Post by johnnyanmac »

ImPostingOnHN wrote: post #105
lifeisstillgood wrote: post #20

My problem is that I quite like working with other people. It’s really hard to build relationships with other human beings when not in the same physical location- sharing jokes, lunches, walks and just shouting across the room about the weird code change . It’s vital. Most large companies think that as they are hiring “the best from around the world” that leaving them around the world is fine. Look leaving people on…

> My problem is that I quite like working with other people. It’s really hard to build relationships with other human beings when not in the same physical location- sharing jokes, lunches, walks and just shouting across the room about the weird code change I am a remote worker, and I quite like working with other people, too, which is why I do it. Walking and shouting don't really factor into it, but we do share plen…

>To me, that behavior is tantamount to asserting that what you have to say is more important than everything everyone else is doing. If there's a fire, maybe it is.

depends on your workplace. There were dedicated quiet rooms workers would go in when they really needed to focus. Meanwhile, being in the lounge was a sign for a more lax work period. You don't really get that social messaging, especially since some people never update their status, or worse yet are eternally "do not disturb".

>but I have many more outside of work, and deeper friendships besides...Sometimes folks desire deeper work friendships as a substitute for friendships outside of work.

I don't. Only thing harder than befriending remote coworkers is trying to keep up with flaky meetup members you see once and never again. If you didn't stay in physical contact with schoolgoers, I have no clue how men c. 2018+ actually make friends post college. Maybe if I played sports it'd be different.

but sure, if you could solve this conundrum (I've tried for some 6 years now) I could easily concede to remote work.

Re: The workers have spoken: They're staying home

#238

Post by johnnyanmac »

bloopernova wrote: post #41
api wrote: post #8

When someone says you must RTO to a place like San Francisco or Seattle just respond that you will require a 250% pay raise for real estate cost differences. Might help change zoning policy in those cities too if managers and executives see that the entire local economy is basically an elaborate machine to funnel money to property owners with extra steps like employment.

I was offered a job in San Francisco. For the same salary as my Michigan based job. And of course they wanted 100% in office. They were confused when I rejected the offer.

would have been funnier to counter offer with 300% of the compensation they offered.

Re: The workers have spoken: They're staying home

#239

Post by sshine »

wnc3141 wrote: post #73
ghaff wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So much relates to commute. I'd probably meander in for a halfway decent office arrangement if it were less than a 30 minute walk and there were actually people I worked with there. But that hasn't been the case so I don't.

I wonder what WFH arrangements in Copenhagen or Amsterdam look like.

Hybrid. I’ll show up at the office 1-2 days a week. We’ll agree on a weekday.

Re: The workers have spoken: They're staying home

#240

Post by johnnyanmac »

jmyeet wrote: post #18

For the longest time, we tech workers have convinced ourselves we're special. We believe we can act on our own behalf against our employer on equal footing. We start to believe in the myth of meritocracy. Remember the "Day in the Life" vidoes? When was the last time you saw someone showing their amazing workspace, the free food, the amentities and all that? A few years ago they were everywhere. Now? Nowhere. We are n…

> We are now in permanent layoff culture. Some of us still believe this is companies trimming the fat. It is not. It is wage suppression.

Speaking in games, they pretty much trimmed as much fat as they could with every loophole in the book. But they still want to make bigger games that compete with Fortnite instead of more focused reelases.

There's no fat left to trim so they are in fact shutting down studios and cancelling projects. I'm sure the trillionaire companies will survive no matter what, but games are genuinely in a bad spot right now.

>As a tech worker, you are just like any other worker. You are not immune. The only effective counter is to act collectively with your fellow employees.

fundamentally, the very reason companies kept hoarding tech workers is because in fact, yesterday's employee can be come toorrow's competitor. Gabe newell walked away from Microsoft and made a gaming empire Microsoft could only dream of. Jobs walked away from apple more than once and helped found an industry disrupting company that forever transformed a medium of movies ruled by Disney for decades prior. And likewise, a dispute in Disney animation created their biggest competitor in that new space, a competitor very clearly fueled by spite. Dozens of stories like that

In the 00's, the biggest fear of the big tech companies was poaching. Clearly in the 2020's past critical mass they care more about making number go up. The cycle will repeat and those companies will remember why hey at one point colluded among one another to make anti-poaching clauses.

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