The workers have spoken: They're staying home • Hacker News Board

Re: The workers have spoken: They're staying home

#41

Post by bloopernova » Mon, Jul 22, 2024, 6:15 PM UTC

api wrote: post #8

When someone says you must RTO to a place like San Francisco or Seattle just respond that you will require a 250% pay raise for real estate cost differences. Might help change zoning policy in those cities too if managers and executives see that the entire local economy is basically an elaborate machine to funnel money to property owners with extra steps like employment.

I was offered a job in San Francisco. For the same salary as my Michigan based job. And of course they wanted 100% in office.

They were confused when I rejected the offer.

Re: The workers have spoken: They're staying home

#42

Post by BenFranklin100 » Mon, Jul 22, 2024, 6:16 PM UTC

bunderbunder wrote: post #10

I think that companies might have more success getting people back to the office if they had not also spent the past decade or two systematically updating offices to be beautiful to look at in CAD renderings but awful to actually occupy and try to work in. This move toward not giving permanent desk assignments to people who are required to be in the office also makes it worse. Open plan offices are a bit of a product…

It is incredibly short sighted not to provide a dedicated desk.

Re: The workers have spoken: They're staying home

#43

Post by Suppafly » Mon, Jul 22, 2024, 6:16 PM UTC

lifeisstillgood wrote: post #20

My problem is that I quite like working with other people. It’s really hard to build relationships with other human beings when not in the same physical location- sharing jokes, lunches, walks and just shouting across the room about the weird code change . It’s vital. Most large companies think that as they are hiring “the best from around the world” that leaving them around the world is fine. Look leaving people on…

>My problem is that I quite like working with other people.

Which is fine as long as you understand that the rest of us don't. Most of the push for back to the office is being pushed by extroverted people that miss being about to chat with people and not because of any results driven data.

Re: The workers have spoken: They're staying home

#44

Post by asah » Mon, Jul 22, 2024, 6:17 PM UTC

betaby wrote: post #38

PaulDavisThe1st wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Median incomes have outpaced inflation over the last several years. https://www.axios.com/2024/02/05/wages-outpacing-inflation

And at the same time people struggle to pay rent. Official inflation numbers doesn't correlate how 'median' earner spends its salary.

The rent-strugglers have the loudest voices... (and they're not "wrong" just skewing the media)

Re: The workers have spoken: They're staying home

#45

Post by RiverCrochet » Mon, Jul 22, 2024, 6:17 PM UTC

andrepd wrote: post #11

RiverCrochet wrote: post #7

It shouldn't take me an hour and 30 minutes in congested, underbuilt roads to drive 20 miles into the office. Cities and their wealthy politically-connected commercial office building owners have had decades to fix this problem. No sympathy.

>drive There is your problem. Personal automobiles aren't a feasible method of transportation past a certain population density.

I'm not picky about the solution and of course it's a complex issue.

- If a safe, reliable bus or train went to and from close to my house to close to the office, I'd take it. Key is safe and reliable.

- If the roads were designed with enough capacity and planning in mind such that groups of vehicles are not stuck driving 15 MPH on a 70 MPH speed limit stretch of highway for 30 minutes or longer every day, that'd be fine.

- If zoning laws/tax laws/whatever were such that it would be easier to build away from yet close to city centers and have smaller or additional offices closer to where people live, that'd work for me.

- If city apartments were in reach costwise or even somehow subsidized by my employer in an equitable way (don't really know how that would look), and crime was not an issue, I would consider moving within walking distance of my workplace.

Re: The workers have spoken: They're staying home

#46

Post by andrepd » Mon, Jul 22, 2024, 6:17 PM UTC

JBorrow wrote: post #31

whatever1 wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Buses also are useless. Thry routinely waste you hours due to their slowness and inconsistency. The choices really are two: subway (or any dedicated rail thing) or car.

Buses are only slow and inconsistent because of cars.

Exactly, a bus that doesn't have its own lane is a failure, as they get stuck in traffic it'll always strictly slower than cars. So people—if they can help it—drive cars, making more traffic, making buses slower, causing people to prefer more cars...

While if they run in dedicated lanes there is a counterbalance: the more people drive the worse traffic is, making the bus a comparatively better option, making people drive less... :)

Re: The workers have spoken: They're staying home

#47

Post by agentultra » Mon, Jul 22, 2024, 6:17 PM UTC

ghaff wrote: post #23

bunderbunder wrote: post #10

I think that companies might have more success getting people back to the office if they had not also spent the past decade or two systematically updating offices to be beautiful to look at in CAD renderings but awful to actually occupy and try to work in. This move toward not giving permanent desk assignments to people who are required to be in the office also makes it worse. Open plan offices are a bit of a product…

So much relates to commute. I'd probably meander in for a halfway decent office arrangement if it were less than a 30 minute walk and there were actually people I worked with there. But that hasn't been the case so I don't.

Same. I’m glad I work in a fully remote org.

We actually have an office. It’s over an hour commute away from me. And I have school-aged children that I have to prepare and drop off in the mornings. None of my co-workers work there. So I basically never go.

At my last job I did have an office that was within walking distance. My children were much younger. I had a dedicated desk and office. And I managed to make it in every day.

Commutes are a big factor in the decision. For a lot of reasons. Climate, expense, convenience, etc.

Re: The workers have spoken: They're staying home

#48

Post by Suppafly » Mon, Jul 22, 2024, 6:17 PM UTC

BenFranklin100 wrote: post #19

Remote work for developers is a viable option. We are rapidly moving the majority of our software development to India, and only keeping product leads in Europe and the US.

>We are rapidly moving the majority of our software development to India

Good luck with that, almost every company that does that either fails or brings development back to their main location.

Re: The workers have spoken: They're staying home

#49

Post by Rinzler89 » Mon, Jul 22, 2024, 6:18 PM UTC

lifeisstillgood wrote: post #34

I would be interested to hear from Indian, Philipino or other off- near- shore locations. Is this “give me WFH or give me death” actually just USA/European entitlement and Chennai Devs will gleefully work in air-conditioned offices (hopefully not open plan cubicle hell but nicely designed “WeWork-like” places) and discover the turbo-charge of a co-located mission locked team? Are we Western Devs about to learn a very…

Where I'm sitting in Europe (Austria) it's the opposite. We have to be in the office 2/3 days per week to "not loose contact with the colleagues" or because "we're all a team here", only because senior management said so without any logical arguments related to productivity.

And "give me death" is not an option since every company has normalized RTO here so there's nowhere to go as the tech market is weak here so fully FWH option is next to none existent, while the offshore offices I know in Eastern Europe and Asia are fully remote since they were always basically remote anyway being away from the mothership and the tech market there has boomed after the pandemic meaning they have to offer WFH to not loose their workers.

IMHO the offshoring countries are the real winners here.

Re: The workers have spoken: They're staying home

#50

Post by asah » Mon, Jul 22, 2024, 6:18 PM UTC

RiverCrochet wrote: post #7

It shouldn't take me an hour and 30 minutes in congested, underbuilt roads to drive 20 miles into the office. Cities and their wealthy politically-connected commercial office building owners have had decades to fix this problem. No sympathy.

RTO failed in NYC as well.