Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

For advertising, Firefox now collects user data by default

heise.de

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

191–200 of 523 posts

Re: For advertising, Firefox now collects user data by default

#191

Post by mort96 »

anordal wrote: post #129
lopis wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this line is very important: > First, in the absence of alternatives, there are enormous economic incentives for advertisers to try to bypass these countermeasures, leading to a perpetual arms race that we may not win. It's very likely that this arms race will lead to DRM in web publications and video feeds (which Google is already experimenting with).

Yes, that line is important. This has happened before. Remember the critique against Encrypted Media Extensions ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Encrypted_Media_Extensions ): Oh no, DRM in the browser! But remember that web video used to require Adobe Flash for the longest time, and even after a decade of HTML5 video, sites were still clinging onto Adobe Flash (and later also Microsoft Silverlight) for what turned out…

The situation with Flash and Silverlight was better than the situation currently is with EME. Before, you could implement a standard-compliant open source web browser, you just may not be able to view certain non-web embeds. Now, web browsers need permission from Google to view certain kinds of web content, and they can't be open source.

Re: For advertising, Firefox now collects user data by default

#192

Post by berkes »

talkin wrote: post #179
berkes wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How would that legal "protection" work in practice? What would it protect against? Who would it protect? What you say sounds reasonable. And I'm not trying to say "well, it's impossible because of some current status quo", because we could change that. What I'm trying to say is that we need this "industry" to work out the practicalities. Otherwise we are "protected" in a same way the GDPR protects us against 3rd part…

Legal: “it’s forbidden to target ads at specific users” Done.

Sounds reasonable.

But I highly doubt it removes the want for private data, though. Tracking is also there to measure performance, do AB tests, etc etc.

I'm sure such a broad sweeping law would solve some. But it won't make the ad industry suddenly "good" or go away, or get purged or such.

Re: For advertising, Firefox now collects user data by default

#193

Post by arepublicadoceu »

Klonoar wrote: post #101
latexr wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It’s clear in retrospect that we should have communicated more on this one What isn’t clear, in retrospect or otherwise, is why companies/apps/services need to keep learning this lesson. The user outcry was utterly predictable from even before the first web article was out. The fact that no one with decision power at Mozilla saw it coming is worrying: either they have zero understanding of people’s concerns for pri…

> The fact that no one with decision power at Mozilla saw it coming is worrying: either they have zero understanding of people’s concerns for privacy or they don’t care. Or the third option: they feel the tradeoff of HN & co's criticism style is not a big deal in the end. Criticism of Mozilla in general is very warranted right now, but the way(s) in which everyone is doing so just feels very out of touch with the act…

> Or the third option: they feel the tradeoff of HN & co's criticism style is not a big deal in the end.

Well, right now, with their dwindling market cap, I feel like their only userbase is HN & co's type of user.

They repeatedly failed to increase their user base with non privacy conscious adjacent communities. So antagonizing the ONLY folks that go through the trouble of installing a non default browser to have a worse user experience seems like a big brain moment.

Re: For advertising, Firefox now collects user data by default

#194

Post by berkes »

bondarchuk wrote: post #188
berkes wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How would that legal "protection" work in practice? What would it protect against? Who would it protect? What you say sounds reasonable. And I'm not trying to say "well, it's impossible because of some current status quo", because we could change that. What I'm trying to say is that we need this "industry" to work out the practicalities. Otherwise we are "protected" in a same way the GDPR protects us against 3rd part…

We don't necessarily need the ad industry to work out the practicalities if we simply do away with the whole ad industry. We could quite easily outlaw receiving payments from a third party in exchange for displaying information to your users.

That hardly worked when implemented in the GDPR, where this exchange is most often "free". Why would it work this time?

Re: For advertising, Firefox now collects user data by default

#195

Post by Klonoar »

consp wrote: post #177
Klonoar wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The fact that no one with decision power at Mozilla saw it coming is worrying: either they have zero understanding of people’s concerns for privacy or they don’t care. Or the third option: they feel the tradeoff of HN & co's criticism style is not a big deal in the end. Criticism of Mozilla in general is very warranted right now, but the way(s) in which everyone is doing so just feels very out of touch with the act…

> the ad industry is not going away That's the start of full blown stockholm syndrome. No data is ever fully anonymous, don't pretend otherwise. So no data should be send at all.

What you call Stockholm syndrome, I call reality. ;P

This is an area that we are stuck contending with. Legal solutions are needed here but that path is mired by complex and powerful lobbying. If Mozilla can push for a more private or more protective - even if not fully private or fully protective - then I’d like to see where it goes.

Re: For advertising, Firefox now collects user data by default

#196

Post by latexr »

bawolff wrote: post #166
latexr wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It’s clear in retrospect that we should have communicated more on this one What isn’t clear, in retrospect or otherwise, is why companies/apps/services need to keep learning this lesson. The user outcry was utterly predictable from even before the first web article was out. The fact that no one with decision power at Mozilla saw it coming is worrying: either they have zero understanding of people’s concerns for pri…

Honestly, having worked at companies that made unpopular product decisions (nothing like this, but still every company puts its foot in its mouth sometimes), it can be surprisingly non-obvious what gets people bothered and what doesn't. We always see the decisions that blow up, but we dont notice the thousands of decisions nobody cares about. Sometimes it really does look like just another minor feature request at co…

> it can be surprisingly non-obvious what gets people bothered and what doesn't.

Agreed in general, disagreed in the specific Mozilla case. They’re an internet-related company where “privacy” is one of the stated core goals, yet they’ve stuck their foot in their mouth so often they could open a shoe shop. Failing to see this one is at best incompetence.

Re: For advertising, Firefox now collects user data by default

#197

Post by SebastianKra »

talkin wrote: post #179
berkes wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How would that legal "protection" work in practice? What would it protect against? Who would it protect? What you say sounds reasonable. And I'm not trying to say "well, it's impossible because of some current status quo", because we could change that. What I'm trying to say is that we need this "industry" to work out the practicalities. Otherwise we are "protected" in a same way the GDPR protects us against 3rd part…

Legal: “it’s forbidden to target ads at specific users” Done.

My perfect world would have a law against advertising in general. If someone's paying you to say something, it's a conflict of interest and illegal.

Hopefully, the vacuum of people needing to know things would result in better independent Product reviews.

And the vacuum of not spending 30% of your company budget on advertising would hopefully lead to sinking prices and people being more willing to spend on things that were previously funded by advertising.

Re: For advertising, Firefox now collects user data by default

#199

Post by pdimitar »

Klonoar wrote: post #144
pdimitar wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's also possible to disable it, it's not like you're trapped in it. Or so they say, in order to make people be OK with it. They might play the waiting game and in a year or two will make the setting not do anything and still collect / send data, hoping that by that time people have forgotten.

There is so much hypothetical-borderline-conspiracy-theory packed in to this single comment that I cannot find a charitable response. I'd be fine to continue the discussion if you can find a way to engage without assuming that the people who build one of the last checks on the open internet are somehow trying to maliciously invade your privacy.

Firefox is dependent on Google for ages, that should tell you all you need to know about "conspiracies".

I am not interested in a discussion with a person who gives the benefit of the doubt of a company who has clearly not only made a Faustian deal but is now looking to expand partnership with the people that nobody wants tracking their machines and activities.

Because as we both know, in the entire history of humanity there were NEVER any conspiracies when there is money to be made, right? Wink wink.

Re: For advertising, Firefox now collects user data by default

#200

Post by jellykid »

temporarely wrote: post #162

Enough of this waiting for virtuous entities to address legitimate concerns of the public. The "ad industry" is a cancer and we need legal protection against this "industry". The solution is political not technical and definitely can not be left to "the market". Haven't you had enough?

When it comes to the internet... I'd prefer it to stay like the wild west. Least amount of regulation beyond something like net neutrality. People forget that the reason we have all of these "free" services is because of ads and that's coming from someone who hates ads. Every streaming subscription I have, I pay for the ad-free service. Let the people who don't know how to install a browser extension or change a few settings pay for these things for the rest of us.
Post reply on HN