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Apple okays Epic Games marketplace app in Europe

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Re: Apple okays Epic Games marketplace app in Europe

#121
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unity got raked over the coals for this. Real shame Apple more or less got away with it with its ransom bekng to stay inside the walled garden.

Unity got raked over the coals for *retroactively* changing the licensing fees for developers in a way that negatively impacted a common existing business model amongst their customers. It’s fair to not like the Apple fees but the scenario isn’t equivalent. One was a rug pull. If they did that all along it wouldn’t have been as big an issue.

I'd say it's still equivalent. I just think apple was smart knowing most people are comfy in the walled garden and won't throw up a fuss.

Similar to Unity, these pricing ding the smaller people the most. But unlike Unity, the bigger players aren't joining the protest. I guess I was just foolish thinking businesses would at least think in the middle-term of "what if we want our own storefront one day ". I guess the EU might pick up that ball, but the Apathy from other devs is a bit disenheartening. The same Apathy that let these companies enshittify the net and turn into trillionaires as punishment

Re: Apple okays Epic Games marketplace app in Europe

#122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Epic‘s no saint, but I don’t expect them to outright lie about something they’ll likely present to officials. Especially considering that the alleged behavior is exactly in line with what Apple has been doing for a long time.

I mean, so far what we've got is mostly some statements on Twitter. Given how much of this fight has been waged in the media, I put a lot less faith in that than you do. If there's some actual filings with the EU about this somewhere I'd definitely be interested to read them. If Apple's actually rejecting this application because "they used standard platform buttons in a standard platform way", then yeah, nail them t…

> If Apple's actually rejecting this application because "they used standard platform buttons in a standard platform way", then yeah, nail them to the wall.

Apple has publicly commented that the buttons are in fact the reason for the rejection.

“Apple has since told AppleInsider on Friday that it has approved Epic's marketplace app. It has also asked Epic to fix the buttons in a future submission of the app for review.”

src: https://appleinsider.com/articles/24/07/05/apple-green-light...

Re: Apple okays Epic Games marketplace app in Europe

#123
post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Free to play is not inherently predatory. See below. > genuinely makes a free to play game [...] because it made better business sense than charging $50 up front. So the free to play model fleeces you for more money. It's not predatory. At all. Honest.

> See below. See above. > So the free to play model fleeces you for more money. It's not predatory. At all. Honest. Ah, I see the cause of the misunderstanding. You're assuming the free to play model fleeces people for more money always when that simply isn't true. It's obviously true when companies are playing dirty, but not all companies do. Consider little indie studios, for example. Quite often, free to play can…

> Consider little indie studios, for example.

The little indie studios that I buy my games from are all pay once?

> Quite often, free to play can end up costing people less money. Case in point, I played CSGO for 10+ years and spent less than $5 on it. If I had bought the game when it came out it would have cost $20 or so.

Someone else paid $2000 for hats or whatever CSGO sells in the same period to cover the $20 you and other 98 players haven't paid.

And the game design and development effort went towards making those hats so the whales can buy them.

Any free to play game would have been completely different if it were designed as a pay once game.

Re: Apple okays Epic Games marketplace app in Europe

#124
post #108
post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Both are good choices TBH. Maybe Apple is utterly incompatible with the way we Europeans (at least western part for sure) treat freedom and moral behavior and expect companies adhere to those principles. Not empty phrases or half-assed gestures all over the place, but real, concrete, measurable, long term at least good enough behavior. I'd say fine every transgression progressively so much it hurts their finances so…

Out of curiosity, do you think that Apple's customers in Europe would be appreciative of their entire platform being strongarmed into stopping service?

Just like with russia, they would service current customers just like usually, just not be able to get new ones. Slow, for Apple painful, exit. Of course as mentioned the effect on shares would be catastrophic so they would actually start respecting the law way before that would happen, Cook and shareholders ain't stupid and know very well what games they play.

It would just stop these PR charades where they try to act like they care and have some actual morals, but act differently.

Re: Apple okays Epic Games marketplace app in Europe

#125
post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Perfect is the enemy of the good. I think it goes both ways. Perfection is letting me control the hardware I bought and tweak the software to my liking. them throwing their hands up because of their motte argument of "security" doesn't resonate with me. Especially when the bailey argument is simply "we want to control everything you do". Here, it's "don't even try to achieve good, avoid bad at all costs". In my mind…

Some call it "the Apple tax". To that end, I see this as more like the invention of courts and a police force in a world that was previously an anarchy. Yes, I lose the power to do things; in exchange, I genuinely gain the security of some measure of defence against other people doing things at my expense. I remember when we could actually read all the code on our computers — that time has passed even when the source…

> Yes, I lose the power to do things; in exchange, I genuinely gain the security of some measure

Most of the security you gain is due to mechanisms built in the OS like sandboxing. Third-party appstores gain the same security by default.

Re: Apple okays Epic Games marketplace app in Europe

#126
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Android has been the dominant mobile OS for over a decade. Additionally, desktop browsers have been a thing since forever. Where is the multitude of amazing native-like web apps that we keep hearing about?

> Android has been the dominant mobile OS for over a decade. worldwide, and not by a large margin. I believe it's 60/40 last I checked. Among US and a few other first world countries, it's nearly 50/50, with a very small advantadge to Apple. Slashing your consumer base in the biggest markets isn't an attractive proposition. >Where is the multitude of amazing native-like web apps that we keep hearing about? well Apple…

> well Apple made PWA's harde

So. Let me get this straight. Android is dominant in the world. In first world countries it's 50/50 (though it's 69% in the EU). There are also desktops where Chrome is dominant.

And yet, somehow, there are still no amazing PWAs[1] that are the future as everyone claims, because somehow Apple prevents you from building them for those dominant platforms.

[1] Don't mention Figma or VSCode before you also mention how much effort went into implementing them.

Re: Apple okays Epic Games marketplace app in Europe

#127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The web is more than good enough. There's just a lot of people drinking the kool-aid and believing big tech's subtle and not so subtle messages about the web being shite. Of course the web is shite on devices from companies that compete with the web. They actively undermine it.

The web is absolutely more than good enough for the vast majority of apps. I was playing Quake Live in the browser on a thermally throttled dual core laptop 15 years ago, but the hive mind here at HN will have you believe that the generic social media apps that dominate the charts all need to be "close to the metal": https://apps.apple.com/us/charts/iphone/top-free-apps/36

Just because you played Quake doesn't mean the web is good for "vast majority of apps".

The web can barely display simple text and images without jank because that is inherent limitation of the DOM that you cannot escape (that, and the absolute dearth of useful controls and utilities in the browser).

You could of course build stuff with canvas/WebGPL/WebGPU, but then you have to reinvent the whole world from scratch because those are low-level (and in case of Canvas quite limited) APIs

Re: Apple okays Epic Games marketplace app in Europe

#128
post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some call it "the Apple tax". To that end, I see this as more like the invention of courts and a police force in a world that was previously an anarchy. Yes, I lose the power to do things; in exchange, I genuinely gain the security of some measure of defence against other people doing things at my expense. I remember when we could actually read all the code on our computers — that time has passed even when the source…

>I genuinely gain the security of some measure of defence against other people doing things at my expense. If I need security, I buy anti-virus. But I can't opt out of Apples "security". I don't see that as a good thing. If apple wanted to offer that at checkout, I wouldn't mind at all. Worst case scenario, I backup all my stuff. My phone exploding should not ruin any more of my livliehood than losing a few days of p…

> If I need security, I buy anti-virus. But I can't opt out of Apples "security". I don't see that as a good thing. If apple wanted to offer that at checkout, I wouldn't mind at all.

I can't opt out of the police.

I can opt out of Apple's security by using literally any other brand of phone.

> Worst case scenario, I backup all my stuff.

No, the worse-case scenario is that malware knows everything you look at and everything you type (like bank details), everything you're listening to in real life, your location, your health data, etc.… and can also be used to spy on you through all the phones of the people around you in much the same way even if you don't download any malware yourself.

(And how many of those things would Facebook like to do in the name of "improved advertisement targeting"? If they had full access to photo libraries rather than just what's uploaded to their servers, I'd expect them to try to analyse all my friend's photos that happen to include me for this exact reason, and I'd expect that data to be mis-used by malicious parties just like other ad data has reportedly been).

There's a lot of reason someone should be enforcing rules on this; not so much that it should be Apple doing it.

> whose relationship should end after the device ships to my address

So, not a fan of security patches? :P

> But I like the ease of mind knowing I can take my ball and go home if Google goes rogue (and I can argue thst it has already done so, years ago).

Given that Google has (arguably) already gone rogue, can you actually take your ball and go home? There's a whole subreddit for that, yet every time I've heard other people try, it turns out much harder than anticipated.

> That's the power of open source. The best possible insurance when I go in loops under "official channels".

I have no more reason to trust open source than closed source: underhanded-C contest; at least one example of a Linux distro doing exactly what I'd expect if they were under a secret government order; Reflections on Trusting Trust; the foot-gun nature of C++ combined with its popularity; the number of times someone else has told me to fix something in a PR or QA report where I never spotted the issue while writing the code myself; and the obvious motivations of intelligence agencies worldwide to insert backdoors.

Re: Apple okays Epic Games marketplace app in Europe

#129

That third party app stores are subject to review by apple is a problem in itself.

> third party app stores are subject to review by apple is a problem in itself Anybody speaking with certainty on these questions should be distrusted. We don’t know. We now have a natural experiment between the EU and U.S. My suspicion is we’ll see Orwellian corporate surveillance through mandated alternative marketplaces, e.g. Facebook requiring an Eye of Sauron marketplace to get around Apple’s rules, but that’s j…

> We don’t know.

We know:

https://novayagazeta.eu/articles/2024/07/04/apple-bows-to-kr...

https://9to5mac.com/2021/06/15/app-store-lgbtq-censorship-co...

https://www.cnn.com/2024/04/19/tech/china-apple-whatspp-thre...

Anyone speaking with certainty against these examples should be distrusted. This is our reality. You cannot deny what Apple does.

Re: Apple okays Epic Games marketplace app in Europe

#130
post #73
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Whats the difference between mobsters owning a city , demanding money from all shops and Apple? Apple produces and sells the device. Without Apple, you wouldn’t be able to build these apps; whereas the shops would exist without the mobsters. (not trying to defend Apple, just answering the question)

Consumers buy these devices. Apple doesn't give them away for free. A consumer should be able to run whatever they want on the devices they have purchased. We are a long way from achieving this basic goal.

But the market has voted with their wallet.

iPhones are extremely popular and desired, and people voted for it, in its current state.

If people didn’t like what Apple was doing, they can just buy Android. Awfully simple

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