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My experiences at a woman's programming workshop

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Re: My experiences at a woman's programming workshop

#61
post #58
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Do you feel you're worth less if you're perceived to be less manly? No, I simply dislike it when other people tell me how I'm supposed to act based on their proprietary rules. I don't give a shit about my masculinity per se, but I do not like to be mashed in by association with stereotypes that feel alien and artificial to me.

I'm sad that you feel that the post was dictating behavior based on gender. I'm surprised and frustrated at how many people are reading things in the article that I never wrote, and never implied- like the sentiment you expressed, or the idea that I'm somehow an advocate for single sex education, or (as one poster on another forum put it, I come off like a "feminist bitch".

> I'm sad that you feel that the post was dictating behavior based on gender.

No, I think you're perceiving it more strongly than I meant it to be. Like I said, I don't actually think this is the most interesting point of the article - so my response here is more a testament to the general reception by our little group than anything else. Overall, I thought it was a good piece to read, actually.

> I'm somehow an advocate for single sex education

I didn't perceive it to be. I too think single sex education is a huge mistake, and one we should not be repeating again. In fact, I believe the more recent conflict of the sexes is largely based on baggage we're still carrying around from that era.

> I come off like a "feminist bitch"

If someone says something like that, just ignore it. It's really not worth responding to people who talk like that. Their phrasing already tells you everything there is to know about them. They're trolls.

Re: My experiences at a woman's programming workshop

#62

At the risk of sounding petty let me say that, I am male and I can only speak about my part of the problem. 1. Do I feel bad about women achieving stuff in life ? Yes. 2. Am I ashamed of the above fact? Yes. Lets face it, from what I have been able to figure out, this is the case with a lot of men in this world. Question we must be asking is : how do we go about solving this problem? This is not as simple as just dev…

"Do I feel bad about women achieving stuff in life ? Yes." is there a typo there? at the moment it reads like other people's (women's) successes make you feel bad.

After having re-read it a few times, I don't think there is a typo. That's why he feels "ashamed" about it. I think you've interpreted it correctly.

Re: My experiences at a woman's programming workshop

#64
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"That's a call for good teachers who are willing to crack down on the class clown. There's always a class clown, and he always needs to be cracked down upon for the good of the class. This is teaching 101. Sorry you didn't have a good teacher." Most of the people who lecture at these events are programmers, not folks who have a masters in teaching along with their state certification.

I think teaching 101 covers widely discredited education theories (stuff like Myress-Briggs, visual auditory and kinesthetic learning styles, and the like) rather than practical teaching tips. There's a practicum to teach them how to teach.

[deleted]

Re: My experiences at a woman's programming workshop

#65
post #4

That bully is a reason why on railsgirls events you have tables for differen skill levels. You could easily send that guy to another table with more advanced people without throwing him out.

What? Bully? That word is getting tossed around a lot these days, and it seems in danger of losing its meaning (or, like "fascist" meaning "someone who thinks or does something I don't like"). There was no "bully" in this story. There was just some guy who loved to hear himself talk, and wanted everyone to think he was smart.

Re: My experiences at a woman's programming workshop

#66
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That's a learned technique for getting assistance. It worked on you, didn't it? I was going to point out the same thing. A women playing dumb to get help from a man, is not uncommon at all.

Yeah! Those sneaky women! All of em will con you and all us men into helping them. Sneaky deceitful women. And people wonder why women don't like male dominated tech events

The dynamic is an important consideration, like it or not. Do you think a woman would play dumb, bat her eyelashes and flip her hair (embellishing) while asking for help if her instructor was a woman?

Re: My experiences at a woman's programming workshop

#67
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That's a learned technique for getting assistance. It worked on you, didn't it? I was going to point out the same thing. A women playing dumb to get help from a man, is not uncommon at all.

Yeah! Those sneaky women! All of em will con you and all us men into helping them. Sneaky deceitful women. And people wonder why women don't like male dominated tech events

I downvoted you because I think that during a discussion about how people (in this case women) learn, figuring out common ways that people (in this case women) seek help is a pretty valid concern.

Maybe men do similar things when they are confused, or maybe not. I don't know enough about education to comment, but attempting to would be off topic anyways.

Re: My experiences at a woman's programming workshop

#68

these questions seemed designed to show off his own knowledge, or to challenge the instructor. Yes, Dave was showing off to an audience of women. she asked me a question she giggled and told me she had no idea what the project was about, or what to do. Yes, the woman was acting like a bimbo to elicit male help. Congrats, you now have the grasp of female/male dynamics usually figured out by middle school. I’d never re…

Competent men do not 'show of their skills, brag and one-up other men'. Yes, they may be technically competent, but they are socially incompetent, because they never progressed beyond that juvenile behavior. I'd gladly drive them away.

Re: My experiences at a woman's programming workshop

#69
I think we simply need to start calling people out in person regardless of their gender. If I saw "Dave" acting like this I'd pull him aside and set him straight. And if he couldn't pull his shit together i'd ask him to leave. And if he couldn't manage to do that, I'd help him leave.

Not that your post is passive-aggressive, but we need to start being proactive about this. In all realms of life. Call people out on their shit or they're not going to change. Humans are weak to the pressures and influences of society. If we continue to stand there and allow certain behavior, they'll continue to do it. If you man up and call people on their crap, it might not work the first time but if enough people do, that person will eventually realize what they are doing is wrong.

Re: My experiences at a woman's programming workshop

#70

When I went to a Java programming class at a local hackerspace, it was something like 70/30 women/men. I didn't really see anything in the way they learned or progressed through the session that was in any way different than the men. What struck me was that holy crap, there's a lot of women here while everybody keeps saying there's no women in tech . I think the author is dead right about the single-sex classes being…

There is a very strong selection bias here (both in your comment and the original article). The woman who signed up for something like your class may be very different (in personality, outgoing ness, comfort with men, etc) from the women who signed up for the original author's class.

The end result is that you both may be right: maybe women (and men, for that matter) should be fully integrated in learning environments and have segregated environments. No two people learn the same, why would we expect the same level of comfort in every classroom setting.

And if I look back to TFA, I think that is what the author meant by "more PyLadies". Listen to everybody and give them all comfortable places to learn.

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