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My experiences at a woman's programming workshop

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Re: My experiences at a woman's programming workshop

#41

Post by WayneDB »

hk_kh wrote: post #14

That's why we do not see more women involved with software, and I am not talking about Dave. I am talking about both, the writer and Dave. Why do you think most women stick to managing projects instead of being involved in Free Software? Too much drama. Too much shit to cope with, that involves dicks and egos. In the article we assume that Dave was a jerk (and it probably was). But, see, the author was in a comfortab…

So, are you saying that women can't or aren't willing to deal with drama or cope with shit that involves dicks and egos?

Where there's muck, there's brass. Are you saying that women have no brass?

Re: My experiences at a woman's programming workshop

#42

Post by wisty »

Alex3917 wrote: post #20
jellicle wrote: post #11

That's not a call for single-sex education. That's a call for good teachers who are willing to crack down on the class clown. There's always a class clown, and he always needs to be cracked down upon for the good of the class. This is teaching 101. Sorry you didn't have a good teacher. >Dave was really excited by the class, and, like me and the other volunteers, had a lot of experience with Python. Sounds like Dave w…

"That's a call for good teachers who are willing to crack down on the class clown. There's always a class clown, and he always needs to be cracked down upon for the good of the class. This is teaching 101. Sorry you didn't have a good teacher." Most of the people who lecture at these events are programmers, not folks who have a masters in teaching along with their state certification.

I think teaching 101 covers widely discredited education theories (stuff like Myress-Briggs, visual auditory and kinesthetic learning styles, and the like) rather than practical teaching tips. There's a practicum to teach them how to teach.

Re: My experiences at a woman's programming workshop

#43

Post by NotMyMorals »

hk_kh wrote: post #14

That's why we do not see more women involved with software, and I am not talking about Dave. I am talking about both, the writer and Dave. Why do you think most women stick to managing projects instead of being involved in Free Software? Too much drama. Too much shit to cope with, that involves dicks and egos. In the article we assume that Dave was a jerk (and it probably was). But, see, the author was in a comfortab…

Wasn't the term "computer" at one time used to describe usually female mathematicians who worked in all female groups at DoD?

Perhaps the problem isn't women, and it isn't men, but instead the urge to force them together and then demand they suppress their natural gender differences?

Based on experience I would guess having gender segregated groups of technical workers could be quite productive. But anyone trying would immediately be hit by lawsuits from the discrimination lawyers.

Too much drama. Too much shit to cope with, that involves dicks and egos.

Absolutely, and from the other side, forcing a man into a mostly female group is going to drive him crazy with what he perceives to be the petty female group dynamics.

Re: My experiences at a woman's programming workshop

#44

Post by stfu »

relix wrote: post #16
derleth wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This. This is a wonderful idea. (In fact, in my evil little mind, I might be tempted to send a Dave to a table just a bit above him, to show him that he's only hot shit in his own mind.)

That's not evil. That's exactly how I would want to be treated in a class. I don't want to learn from people who know less than me, I want to learn from people who know more than me!

I think this is key to make progress in any learning environment, i.e. to find a group that one presumes as being slightly better than oneself. It seems to push at least myself to try harder and become better. But of cause the gap shouldn't be too large, otherwise it is annoying for the group and demotivational for the oneself.

Re: My experiences at a woman's programming workshop

#45

Post by simula67 »

s_baby wrote: post #37
simula67 wrote: post #27

At the risk of sounding petty let me say that, I am male and I can only speak about my part of the problem. 1. Do I feel bad about women achieving stuff in life ? Yes. 2. Am I ashamed of the above fact? Yes. Lets face it, from what I have been able to figure out, this is the case with a lot of men in this world. Question we must be asking is : how do we go about solving this problem? This is not as simple as just dev…

>Painting men as super villains in some grand 'Dan Brown'ian plot of conspiracy against women will NOT work. It works because it plays into traditional gender roles. You don't have to be a bleeding heart liberal to believe women are the "gentler" sex that needs the protection of society. Just good ol' fashioned chivalry.

You are missing the point. Is this a solution? Does this not reinforce the gender stereotype? Are we not trained to compete or cooperate with our equals and take care of the weak an helpless?

Re: My experiences at a woman's programming workshop

#46

Post by NotMyMorals »

Tichy wrote: post #33

What part of the experience showed that single sex workshops might be better? Because there wouldn't be female knowledgeable jerks (either because women are never jerks, or because they are never knowledgeable, or why?)? Or smart women would not be self-deprecating among other women?

Or maybe women would respond to knowledgeable female jerks differently and perhaps more effectively than to knowledgeable male jerks?

Re: My experiences at a woman's programming workshop

#47

Post by stfu »

Udo wrote: post #19
gphilip wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Oh, for fuck's sake, how is some Dave being jerk is making gender difference apparent? >The guy was at the wrong place, and was being a show-off. >But no, you must attribute it to his gender. If you read the article again, you may find that the gender difference which became apparent to the author has to do with the /response/ to Dave's behaviour, and not with his behaviour /per se/. Also, here is a (perhaps interes…

Yes, it has to do with the response, but I can't agree with the main point of it which is due to selection bias I think (not gender differences): To me, and I suspect most men, we’d see Dave’s behavior as a call to arms. Dave was raising the stakes and even though his behavior was clearly rude, it also demonstrated that he had a mastery over the material. If this is the core of the article's point, I don't agree with…

When I encounter a Dave, I don't see it as a pointless "call to arms", I tune out and ultimately leave. I'm not wasting my time fighting people like Dave.

Same here. I think this is mostly a matter of personality. I see no point for bothering with destructive personality types as long as I am not forced into some long-time work/social relationship setting. Life is to short too confront negativity if one can just go out of its way.

Re: My experiences at a woman's programming workshop

#48

Post by s_baby »

simula67 wrote: post #45
s_baby wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Painting men as super villains in some grand 'Dan Brown'ian plot of conspiracy against women will NOT work. It works because it plays into traditional gender roles. You don't have to be a bleeding heart liberal to believe women are the "gentler" sex that needs the protection of society. Just good ol' fashioned chivalry.

You are missing the point. Is this a solution? Does this not reinforce the gender stereotype? Are we not trained to compete or cooperate with our equals and take care of the weak an helpless?

I mean it works rhetorically. I don't agree with the level of victimhood Women's Studies imparts. It's dis-empowering and leads to bitterness.

Re: My experiences at a woman's programming workshop

#49

Post by Udo »

ordinary wrote: post #34
Udo wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, it has to do with the response, but I can't agree with the main point of it which is due to selection bias I think (not gender differences): To me, and I suspect most men, we’d see Dave’s behavior as a call to arms. Dave was raising the stakes and even though his behavior was clearly rude, it also demonstrated that he had a mastery over the material. If this is the core of the article's point, I don't agree with…

I don't like how the article implies this makes me less of a man. I don't think it does that, but nevertheless, this raises an interesting question that I've been having real trouble answering, so maybe you (or others) could help me out: why do you dislike it when people make such implications? Do you feel you're worth less if you're perceived to be less manly?

> Do you feel you're worth less if you're perceived to be less manly?

No, I simply dislike it when other people tell me how I'm supposed to act based on their proprietary rules. I don't give a shit about my masculinity per se, but I do not like to be mashed in by association with stereotypes that feel alien and artificial to me.

Re: My experiences at a woman's programming workshop

#50

Post by Alex3917 »

wisty wrote: post #42
Alex3917 wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"That's a call for good teachers who are willing to crack down on the class clown. There's always a class clown, and he always needs to be cracked down upon for the good of the class. This is teaching 101. Sorry you didn't have a good teacher." Most of the people who lecture at these events are programmers, not folks who have a masters in teaching along with their state certification.

I think teaching 101 covers widely discredited education theories (stuff like Myress-Briggs, visual auditory and kinesthetic learning styles, and the like) rather than practical teaching tips. There's a practicum to teach them how to teach.

I mean if you actually get a masters in education, it's almost all practical stuff. You need to take entire classes on things like how to write on a chalkboard and how to spot kids who are being abused at home. Educational theory and research is only one or two classes out of the two years. And classroom management is one of the biggest topics, and it's the first thing you get evaluated on when you're doing your student teaching.
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