The saddest "Just Ship It" story ever (2020) • Hacker News Board

Re: The saddest "Just Ship It" story ever (2020)

#261

Post by hinkley » Thu, Jul 04, 2024, 5:55 PM UTC

IanCal wrote: post #222

fabioborellini wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is a terrible take, and one I generally see as a signal of lack of seniority in a software dev. It is absolutely everybody's job in the company to make sure it is profitable, unless you work for a non-profit. Developers aren't compensated for any extraordinary achievement, though. Unless they own a notable share of the company. So, why should they give everything and get nothing back? How is that fair? Salespe…

> why should they give everything and get nothing back They aren't giving everything they're there to do a job and that job is make the company profit. The person you are replying to isn't saying "you need to go the extra mile to make profits" they're saying "you should be focused on making money for the company, not on personal preferences in your code".

> They aren't giving everything they're there to do a job and that job is make the company profit.

But GP is saying everyone except the devs is there for status and fat bonuses. You’re talking like a defector.

Re: The saddest "Just Ship It" story ever (2020)

#262

Post by hinkley » Thu, Jul 04, 2024, 5:57 PM UTC

OvbiousError wrote: post #221

portaouflop wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My experience working in this industry is very different and devs do get recognition and sometimes bonuses (if certain goals are hit). Devs are paid a premium, have generally much more relaxed work schedules than managers or any customer facing role. If you screw over your health working in a toxic environment that’s on you IMO - as tech worker you probably have more opportunities to improve your working conditions t…

Maybe this is a US vs Europe thing? I'm in the latter region, where I am there's a ceiling for dev salaries, virtually the only way to break through is to become a manager. It's also very uncommon to share the companies success.

Only twice have I worked for a manager who thought it was unethical to ask the devs to work hours they themselves would not work.

The notion that devs have better hours than managers is either a fiction or conflating managers with founders. Who do often work ridiculous hours and expect everyone else to do it too - and enthusiastically - even though they’re the only ones with a stake in the outcome.

Re: The saddest "Just Ship It" story ever (2020)

#263

Post by pdimitar » Thu, Jul 04, 2024, 5:58 PM UTC

fifilura wrote: post #220

pdimitar wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You will be rewarded one day for being a honest and productive worker. 22.5 years later I can confidently say you are living in a comfortable bubble and have no idea what do most programmers go through every day.

I would say that their view is akin to religion. Any religion really. And religion is not always bad. It can help us stay focused, and selfless for some unknown greater good. That greater good does not have to exist. But decreasing the focus on self can still be good for your soul.

> But decreasing the focus on self can still be good for your soul.

Only applies to people who mostly focused on themselves.

I'd argue that most working people have the opposite problem: they have to focus on everybody else's problems but not theirs.

I'm only working towards tangible greater goods. Including my own inner peace.

Re: The saddest "Just Ship It" story ever (2020)

#264

Post by pdimitar » Thu, Jul 04, 2024, 5:59 PM UTC

collingreen wrote: post #226

pdimitar wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is true when it applies to the majority (and nobody said something is only true when it applies to 100% of a group because then absolutely nothing would ever be true when it comes to people). If you think otherwise and are convinced of it then you are very privileged -- and I actually envy you. You have no idea what contractor programmers go through out there, apparently.

This is too angry of a reply to someone adding their personal experience onto your comment about how the world is. I appreciate their anecdote refuting the claim; I think it makes a better discussion than just superlatives so I think you should get back to your point (which I mostly align with) instead of attack them on "just because you showed an example where my rule isn't true doesn't make my rule not true".

So are you saying my point was so obvious that it was unnecessary to be made?

Re: The saddest "Just Ship It" story ever (2020)

#265

Post by vouwfietsman » Thu, Jul 04, 2024, 6:02 PM UTC

katzenversteher wrote: post #94

vouwfietsman wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's worth repeating: Unless you have a stake in the company, it is NOT your job to make sure the company is the most profitable it can be. Your job is to create great software This is a terrible take, and one I generally see as a signal of lack of seniority in a software dev. It is absolutely everybody's job in the company to make sure it is profitable, unless you work for a non-profit. The thing is though, that p…

>> Your job is to create great software >It really isn't, your job is to make a great product. Making a great product often, but not always, requires great software. I believe that depends on the role you have. If you're a software engineer I think you should try to create great software. If you're responsible for the product you can decide it might be better for the product to ship earlier or with the current state…

Depends on what you mean with great software of course, but a developer should work together with the product team to come to a specific realization of the product vision. That vision may not always require great software, and it may actually specifically call for hacky software, but the product people cannot make that judgement call (and if you are in a healthy company, they don't).

This is different from always making great software but shifting priorities.

Re: The saddest "Just Ship It" story ever (2020)

#266

Post by JacobThreeThree » Thu, Jul 04, 2024, 6:06 PM UTC

pdimitar wrote: post #208

JacobThreeThree wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having the interests of the bottom line of the business in mind does not equate to sacrificing yourself. Do what's expected in the interests of the business, not in pursuit of some "great software" ideal.

> Having the interests of the bottom line of the business in mind does not equate to sacrificing yourself. Only in theory. In practice, the incompetent leadership leads to those naturally being identical, as in "we have to deliver project 17 for this year, please do your best!!!" and ad infinitum . > Do what's expected in the interests of the business, not in pursuit of some "great software" ideal. Who mentioned this…

The original poster of the thread mentioned it.

>Unless you have a stake in the company, it is NOT your job to make sure the company is the most profitable it can be. Your job is to create great software. What's great software? The kind you'd be willing to put on your resume without feeling bad.

Re: The saddest "Just Ship It" story ever (2020)

#267

Post by pdimitar » Thu, Jul 04, 2024, 6:08 PM UTC

JacobThreeThree wrote: post #266

pdimitar wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Having the interests of the bottom line of the business in mind does not equate to sacrificing yourself. Only in theory. In practice, the incompetent leadership leads to those naturally being identical, as in "we have to deliver project 17 for this year, please do your best!!!" and ad infinitum . > Do what's expected in the interests of the business, not in pursuit of some "great software" ideal. Who mentioned this…

The original poster of the thread mentioned it. >Unless you have a stake in the company, it is NOT your job to make sure the company is the most profitable it can be. Your job is to create great software. What's great software? The kind you'd be willing to put on your resume without feeling bad.

Thought we were talking about the sub thread but okay, I'll give you that.

You did omit the first part of my comment however.

Re: The saddest "Just Ship It" story ever (2020)

#268

Post by ruszki » Thu, Jul 04, 2024, 6:15 PM UTC

vouwfietsman wrote: post #80

Culonavirus wrote: post #14

There's massive caveat with all of these "and then the story ends because we didn't just ship it :(" stories: sometimes the value of the "app" you're working on is in the technical details that cannot really be "hastened" and you can't "just ship it". Also, and this is something a lot of the managerial class people don't want to hear: Your job as a sw engineer/architect is to resist the "just ship it" pressure from t…

> It's worth repeating: Unless you have a stake in the company, it is NOT your job to make sure the company is the most profitable it can be. Your job is to create great software This is a terrible take, and one I generally see as a signal of lack of seniority in a software dev. It is absolutely everybody's job in the company to make sure it is profitable, unless you work for a non-profit. The thing is though, that p…

Personally, I’ve never seen good developers who cared at all about profitability. All of them cared about the products and customers, but no one was driven by profit at all. Whom I met and cared about profit, they were mediocre the best.

Re: The saddest "Just Ship It" story ever (2020)

#269

Post by fragmede » Thu, Jul 04, 2024, 6:15 PM UTC

snozolli wrote: post #248

vouwfietsman wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's worth repeating: Unless you have a stake in the company, it is NOT your job to make sure the company is the most profitable it can be. Your job is to create great software This is a terrible take, and one I generally see as a signal of lack of seniority in a software dev. It is absolutely everybody's job in the company to make sure it is profitable, unless you work for a non-profit. The thing is though, that p…

Many great products have terrible software behind them. Please give some examples of great products created by software developers that have terrible software behind them.

Early Facebook was written in PHP, and regardless of what you think of them as a company, just look at their market cap. WordPress has a huge userbase these days and had similar roots.

Re: The saddest "Just Ship It" story ever (2020)

#270

Post by aydyn » Thu, Jul 04, 2024, 6:29 PM UTC

vasco wrote: post #181

aydyn wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, everyone lives life in the same "game theory quadrant" whatever that means. People primarily play for themselves including you, some people are just more aware of this fact than others. And also its still always rational to defect.

That's not true, I have many examples I've seen of people putting themselves second. Of course everyone has these thoughts and actions and needs to reflect and be self aware, but it's not true that everyone is just always out for themselves, in fact that's the type of world view that leads people into the wrong quadrant and it's a bit of a depressing world view. I think you understood exactly what I meant by wrong qu…

I understood that you were referring to the prisoners dilemma, but I dont understand or agree with your idea of living in a quadrant. Everyone lives with the same game theory, difference arises from individual incentives and indivdual intelligence/rationality. But ultimately everyone seeks the nash.

Donating money? Volunteering? Even donating a kidney can all categorically be understood in terms of individual gain.