Barcelona will eliminate tourist apartments • Hacker News Board

Re: Barcelona will eliminate tourist apartments

#311

Post by senordevnyc » Sat, Jun 22, 2024, 1:41 AM UTC

abdullahkhalids wrote: post #179

xvaier wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They do exist and are increasingly common for new hotel builds, at least where I live. Here is an example of one in Montréal that I stayed in last autumn: https://griffintownhotel.com/en-us/apartments/

These still look [1] like artificial sanitized places. People like AirBnB because most of them have a home like feeling. Random decorations, casual atmosphere, etc. [1] https://griffintownhotel.com/en-us/apartments/comfort

I've stayed in many Airbnbs all over the world, and the majority of the city ones for the last few years are clearly just fulltime Airbnb, with basically zero personality. As soulless as a hotel room, sometimes more if they're trying to seem personal but clearly aren't.

Re: Barcelona will eliminate tourist apartments

#312

Post by voisin » Sat, Jun 22, 2024, 1:41 AM UTC

lostlogin wrote: post #267

voisin wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Classic governments, failing to do the right thing for decades and then blaming something that makes up a tiny part of the problem to shift blame.

A government making a regulation that helps the its constituents seems like what it should be doing.

It should have helped its constituents by ensuring homebuilding meets population growth over periods of time, rather than allowing it to be constrained for decades and then point at AirBNB as the source.

Re: Barcelona will eliminate tourist apartments

#313

Post by coryrc » Sat, Jun 22, 2024, 1:41 AM UTC

JoshTriplett wrote: post #208

coryrc wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not how property taxes work.

That depends on the region. In many places they're based on property value, and in many of those places if your property value goes down you can apply to have your home re-assessed and get taxed according to the new value. (Conversely, if your property values go up your property taxes may go up accordingly, which can in some cases take people's homes from affordable to not affordable.)

Not if everybody's goes up or down.

Re: Barcelona will eliminate tourist apartments

#314

Post by senordevnyc » Sat, Jun 22, 2024, 1:45 AM UTC

notacoward wrote: post #215

abdullahkhalids wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's interesting hotels that feel like an AirBnB don't really exist. Even though the professional AirBnB hosts are doing all the functions that hotels do. Why not the reverse.

I don't know if you meant specifically in Barcelona, but I'm in just such a unit in Montreal as I type this. Physically it's a 2BR apartment, with its own washer/dryer and full (though small) kitchen, but it's booked and run as a hotel. There's hotel-like housekeeping, not a note hidden somewhere that says I have to clean up myself before leaving or incur a hefty extra cleaning fee (on top of the one that's already b…

It's a little unclear to me why this category wouldn't escape regulation, since it's clearly just an entire apartment building where they converted each apartment to an Airbnb for economies of scale around cleaning, maintenance, etc. They're displacing just as many residents as the same number of equivalent Airbnbs spread around a neighborhood. Whereas most traditional hotels feel purpose built for that and couldn't easily be apartments.

Re: Barcelona will eliminate tourist apartments

#315

Post by dcgudeman » Sat, Jun 22, 2024, 1:49 AM UTC

SeanAnderson wrote: post #122

YossarianFrPrez wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True, and I agree this is nowhere near enough. But wouldn't a "defense in depth" approach be wise? There are no all or nothing solutions, especially when it comes to policy in a large city. Any bit of relief will no doubt likely be welcome.

Yeah, I agree. I think the change is a step in the right direction to address this specific concern. I think there will be some unintended consequences like loss of tourism dollars which will impact small business, but those concerns seem less important to voters. Still, I fear that people generally look to politics for simple, one sentence solutions to problems which take decades to manifest. Barcelona is the 68th d…

> At some point the only lever left to pull is outright banning of foreigners.

That does not follow at all. If you look at the actual densities Barcelona is 1/3 as dense as the densest city in the world. There is plenty of room to accommodate more housing, they just need to build higher.

Re: Barcelona will eliminate tourist apartments

#316

Post by mistermann » Sat, Jun 22, 2024, 2:16 AM UTC

TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #259

kachapopopow wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The issue is that the "airbnb" areas drive normal citizens out which during off-seasons drains foot traffic making local shops go out of business which further complicates the problem. Not to mention that most tourists don't even sit around the local area, but rather go to the city attractions. Airbnb and resident housing areas are just not compatible, they have different needs and require different infrastructure. H…

And then there's the effect on property prices. AirBnBs charge international prices, which creates a property market skewed by international investment. I live in a tourist area, and prices here have gone up by between 100% at the low end to over 500% at the high end. These are mostly holiday homes and holiday rentals, and the locals can't afford to live here any more - either renting or buying. One of the results ha…

> Of course the far right cynically take advantage of this issue, and of course they have no intention whatsoever of fixing anything.

Have you any pejorative memes for "liberal" "democracy", which is what broke it in the first place, or do they get a free pass as usual?

Re: Barcelona will eliminate tourist apartments

#317

Post by lostlogin » Sat, Jun 22, 2024, 2:29 AM UTC

voisin wrote: post #312

lostlogin wrote: post #267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A government making a regulation that helps the its constituents seems like what it should be doing.

It should have helped its constituents by ensuring homebuilding meets population growth over periods of time, rather than allowing it to be constrained for decades and then point at AirBNB as the source.

Sort of?

By this logic a government can never change its priorities.

It’s done something wrong in the past and is trying make up ground now.

Re: Barcelona will eliminate tourist apartments

#318

Post by notacoward » Sat, Jun 22, 2024, 2:44 AM UTC

senordevnyc wrote: post #314

notacoward wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know if you meant specifically in Barcelona, but I'm in just such a unit in Montreal as I type this. Physically it's a 2BR apartment, with its own washer/dryer and full (though small) kitchen, but it's booked and run as a hotel. There's hotel-like housekeeping, not a note hidden somewhere that says I have to clean up myself before leaving or incur a hefty extra cleaning fee (on top of the one that's already b…

It's a little unclear to me why this category wouldn't escape regulation, since it's clearly just an entire apartment building where they converted each apartment to an Airbnb for economies of scale around cleaning, maintenance, etc. They're displacing just as many residents as the same number of equivalent Airbnbs spread around a neighborhood. Whereas most traditional hotels feel purpose built for that and couldn't…

When talking about a matter of law or regulation, phrases like "feel purpose built" don't carry a lot of weight. Looking at legal definitions of "hotel" across many jurisdictions, it looks like a lot of of them center on the concept of temporary or transient usage. Intent to operate on that basis also shows up fairly often too. Here's a handy compilation (NB not the only source I consulted).

https://www.lawinsider.com/dictionary/hotel

Note that style of construction does not seem to be a factor. Many hotels offer freestanding villas or cabins, practically small (sometimes even not so small) houses, and have for a long time. Chains like Residence Inn, Homewood Suites, or Extended Stay America have likewise offered hotel accommodation in the physical form of an apartment for almost as long. Personally, I think the inclusion of housekeeping services during a stay is a big differentiator, perhaps because it demonstrates intent to serve a transient clientele. By contrast, a "dual use" house or apartment that is owner occupied part of the time and rented out part of the time does not show such intent. Neither do the illegal sublets that are behind many Airbnb rentals.

In other words, the physical similarity between a suite hotel (like the one I'm in) and apartments doesn't seem determinative. Rather, what seems to matter is the financial difference between a nightly (or perhaps weekly) guest vs. a longer term lessee. I'm not saying whether it's right or wrong, but it does explain why different types of levels of regulation are applicable to each.

P.S. The ones "escaping regulation" are the Airbnbs, not the hotels. Hotels are subject to much more stringent standards wrt safety, sanitation, privacy, billing, etc.

Re: Barcelona will eliminate tourist apartments

#319

Post by dkasper » Sat, Jun 22, 2024, 4:42 AM UTC

senordevnyc wrote: post #306

kranke155 wrote: post #290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The pay in tourism is terrible, usually minimum wage, except for the owners of capital, who gain enormous returns on investing in hotels / airbnbs / tourist aimed businesses. That means it has an awful return for the ones most in need which are the poor. It’s not a distributive industry. On top of that, it can cause a “resource curse” type phenomenon where great beaches or some other attraction causes enormous amount…

Tourist gives you such great returns on investment it doesn’t make sense to do anything else if you have capital Yep, I'm considering buying a vacation home to Airbnb for this reason. I have mixed feelings about it though, because I don't want to be part of the problem. But I live in NYC and I can't move (shared custody), nor can I buy a suitable home in the city, meanwhile the national housing market is exploding. I…

There should be easier ways to hedge real estate inflation than owning an airbnb.

Re: Barcelona will eliminate tourist apartments

#320

Post by ghaff » Sat, Jun 22, 2024, 4:51 AM UTC

notacoward wrote: post #318

senordevnyc wrote: post #314

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a little unclear to me why this category wouldn't escape regulation, since it's clearly just an entire apartment building where they converted each apartment to an Airbnb for economies of scale around cleaning, maintenance, etc. They're displacing just as many residents as the same number of equivalent Airbnbs spread around a neighborhood. Whereas most traditional hotels feel purpose built for that and couldn't…

When talking about a matter of law or regulation, phrases like "feel purpose built" don't carry a lot of weight. Looking at legal definitions of "hotel" across many jurisdictions, it looks like a lot of of them center on the concept of temporary or transient usage. Intent to operate on that basis also shows up fairly often too. Here's a handy compilation (NB not the only source I consulted). https://www.lawinsider.co…

>Personally, I think the inclusion of housekeeping services during a stay is a big differentiator, perhaps because it demonstrates intent to serve a transient clientele.

Yes, although a lot of hotels moved away from daily service during the pandemic and stayed there. Which is just fine by me.

If I were to stay longer than a week I'd probably cast my lodging net a bit wider. But hotels (or regular B&Bs, especially outside of cities) meet my needs pretty well for the most part. I have used AirBnB but I'm guessing the standard deviation is higher though I haven't had a bad (small sample) experience.

Even laundry which a number of people mention isn't really a big deal for the most part. I tend to optimize things that can be given a quick wash in the sink. I have stayed in ApartHotels with a laundry room and at B&Bs that will run a cheap load for you for longer trips involving more mud etc. And I've used a wash and fold place on a few occasions. Even as a very light packer, I've never felt the need to do laundry every few days.