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Ask HN: How to handle a senior hire turning out to be junior?

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Re: Ask HN: How to handle a senior hire turning out to be junior?

#211

Post by btasker »

solardev wrote: post #200
mardifoufs wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Contract work is a lot more common in Europe for a reason

I don't think I ever realized that's why there are so many discussions of "employment contracts" here on HN (which has a heavy European population, from what I can see). In my entire adult working life in the US, I've never once had an employment contract (and still have never seen one or heard of anyone else with one, either).

Having an employment contract is more common over here, but that's not the same as what we'd call being a contractor.

As a full-time employee of the company you're working for (i.e. not simply contracted in), you still have an employment contract (it's a right/required) which'll lay out the employment expectations (salary, hours per week, whether you can be required to work additional hours etc).

We do also have contractors - i.e. those who work for an external company who are brought in for a specific project (or to provide easy-to-get-rid-of headcount).

In my experience, working as a contractor isn't all that much more common than in the US. But people having some form of contract is, because basically all employees have one.

Re: Ask HN: How to handle a senior hire turning out to be junior?

#212

Post by btasker »

nkmnz wrote: post #169
btasker wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, it's the result of that poster's mindset - there's absolutely no need to do any of that. In fact, that type of behavior is against the law in a lot of countries and will leave the employer likely liable. If someone's under-performing whilst in their probation period getting rid of them is incredibly easy. Outside of the probation period there's a bit more of a process, but it's still not particularly hard - all y…

This is not true. It’s impossible to fire an employee for performance reason after the probation period in Germany. If an employee cannot deliver on the tasks assigned, they need to be assigned easier tasks. In order to risk your job you have to actively work against solving your skill gap, e.g. declining offers of upskilling.

First, let's be fair, Germany really is an awful example if you're going to then try to apply it to the rest of Europe.

> It’s impossible to fire an employee for performance reason after the probation period in Germany.

This is untrue.

It's true that Kündigungsschutzgesetz does set a really high bar.

You can get rid of them if they aren't delivering on assigned tasks, but you need to show that they are able (and are therefore simply unwilling). There's also the possibility of doing it if there are personal reasons (i.e. something in their life has impacted their suitability for the role) but that's more complex.

That's why you see people get assigned easier tasks - they're being given tasks that are so noddy that anyone could do them (a failure to do so showing that they're not really trying).

But it's hard. The level they have to achieve is really low - something like 65% of a "normal" employee.

But Germany is just one country in Europe. Have a look at France, Italy, Belgium or even the UK - it's *nothing* like the level of stringency that Germany applies.

Re: Ask HN: How to handle a senior hire turning out to be junior?

#213

Post by BrandoElFollito »

pavel_lishin wrote: post #185
bob1029 wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Our flaw was similar. We were asking high level questions. At no point did we ask things like "have you ever used Microsoft Windows" or "have you ever used a desktop computer". It would seem we cannot take these questions for granted anymore. The best strategy I've come up with is to build an intern program and source talent from that lower cost/risk pool. Pulling high level employees off the street was almost always…

We had an apprenticeship/internship program, and it worked out great. It gave new grads (from both colleges and bootcamps) on-the-job experience as well as active mentorship, it gave us an extended but time-limited way to verify that these folks were actually good at their job, and for the most part, they were all excellent software engineers, and we extended offers to something like 75% of them, and 50% of those acc…

This is my favorite way of hiring (in France). You have all your time to get to know the employee and the employee has all the time to get to know the company. It usually brings excellent people for long, no surprises.

Re: Ask HN: How to handle a senior hire turning out to be junior?

#214

Post by anthomtb »

bob1029 wrote: post #175
anthomtb wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Out of curiosity, did you ever figure out the disconnect that caused: > Excellent interview to turn into > couldn't even handle explorer.exe. I had to deal with a similar situation. The size and scale of my employer at the time meant the employee stuck around for multiple years. They never got worse but sure never got better. In our case, the problem was that our interview questions were based on algorithmic knowledg…

Our flaw was similar. We were asking high level questions. At no point did we ask things like "have you ever used Microsoft Windows" or "have you ever used a desktop computer". It would seem we cannot take these questions for granted anymore. The best strategy I've come up with is to build an intern program and source talent from that lower cost/risk pool. Pulling high level employees off the street was almost always…

> build an intern program

I agree this is the best way to hire. Additional benefits are the chance to work on greenfield problems for low cost and creating leadership opportunities for folks with a couple years of experience.

The only downside I have seen with the intern-to-FTE path is a tendency to leave after a few years as an FTE. I never ran numbers, and didn't have the god-power to get the data anyways, but would guess that half the interns who came on as FTE's were gone within 5 years. It would have been particularly interesting to compare intern->FTE tenure versus college grad->FTE tenure.

Thinking about it more, moving on after a few years of productive work is not that much of a downside. Much better than not moving on after years of non-productive "work".

Re: Ask HN: How to handle a senior hire turning out to be junior?

#215

Post by mardifoufs »

btasker wrote: post #211
solardev wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think I ever realized that's why there are so many discussions of "employment contracts" here on HN (which has a heavy European population, from what I can see). In my entire adult working life in the US, I've never once had an employment contract (and still have never seen one or heard of anyone else with one, either).

Having an employment contract is more common over here, but that's not the same as what we'd call being a contractor. As a full-time employee of the company you're working for (i.e. not simply contracted in), you still have an employment contract (it's a right/required) which'll lay out the employment expectations (salary, hours per week, whether you can be required to work additional hours etc). We do also have cont…

Does this mean employees have to renew the contracts? As in, if the employer doesn't renew the contract, does it count as getting fired? Also maybe it's regional, I know that in France contractors are very common but I might have outdated data!

Re: Ask HN: How to handle a senior hire turning out to be junior?

#216

Post by srhtftw »

ZeroGravitas wrote: post #186
hrsnafu wrote: post #182

> there was a breakdown in internal communication where HR was under the impression we wanted to hire at any cost despite us giving the candidate a mediocre rating If HR hired the person despite a mediocre rating then they're the ones that need to be sacked.

If someone had used the phrase "hire at any cost" to HR then a candidate being mediocre seems to not be a fatal flaw. Indeed, it feels as if the OP would be relatively happy if they'd hired a mediocre senior dev, but feel this guy isn't even that.

Quality is a process that begins with management. How they value it is revealed by the actions they take in cases like these.

It's unfortunate OP wrote plenty about their displeasure with the candidate but failed to tell us anything about their role in the hiring process, how well the job description matched the actual job requirements or how HR got the impression it did.

But the situation as described strikes at a reason I've left previous jobs: the feeling that I couldn't trust the competency and integrity of those I worked with.

Like the time our in-house recruiter presented me "resumes" they fabricated from linked-in profiles of people they wanted me to interview but who hadn't actually applied to our company, or the time I was pressured give passing reviews to candidates who couldn't pass basic programming tests from managers eager to hire loyal toadies.

A small outfit with a focus on personal development, intrinsic motivation, good climate, and low turnover can't afford incompetent or perversely motivated HR people who "hire at any cost" candidates with mediocre reviews.

Re: Ask HN: How to handle a senior hire turning out to be junior?

#217

Post by hypeatei »

DamnInteresting wrote: post #208

Your mileage may vary, but I have repeatedly used a particular strategy in difficult work conversations: Explain the problem to the person in direct, plain language, then ask them what they would like to be done about it and/or what they would do in your shoes. You're not committing to actually doing what they suggest, but you're making them aware of the problem and giving them some agency, and some insight into your…

I think being direct and giving someone a chance to explain what a good path for them looks like is a good option. That way, you don't dance around the issue and provide them an opportunity to explain (maybe something is going on in their personal life) which obviously doesn't guarantee their employment but may allow for a bit of leeway.

Re: Ask HN: How to handle a senior hire turning out to be junior?

#218

Post by davkh »

From my experience working on managing roles for 5 years, the most critical part is to be honest and transparent. Especially in terms of expectations. Be clear. talk to them, ask right questions,bring them to the state where they realize and agree with the reality. The rest is simple.

Re: Ask HN: How to handle a senior hire turning out to be junior?

#219

Post by [deleted] »

davkh wrote: post #218

From my experience working on managing roles for 5 years, the most critical part is to be honest and transparent. Especially in terms of expectations. Be clear. talk to them, ask right questions,bring them to the state where they realize and agree with the reality. The rest is simple.

[deleted]

Re: Ask HN: How to handle a senior hire turning out to be junior?

#220

Post by HenryBemis »

tkiolp4 wrote: post #201
UseofWeapons1 wrote: post #9

As you consider the decision to let them go, consider the impact on other people in your work place too. Other developers notice someone like that underperforming and getting overpaid, and it can hurt the good climate you aim for. It may feel bad to fire them, but it may be worse to keep them.

If I were working on that team, I wouldn’t like the company firing the senior dev. If they keep them, and train them, that would reinforce the idea that the company is taking care of its employees. That’s nice. I hate this rat race of being a performant engineer. The moment your performance declines, your managers will let you know and you’re under the radar now.

You are right in general, but in this case it is clear that the issue is not "guy has a tough break, going through a divorce, underperforming for a little while - let's wait it out". It's "we thought we got Messi and we ended up with Henry Bemis - which cannot be salvaged. Imagine the other top players on the team seeing Henry Bemis getting paid Messi-money.
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