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Ask HN: How to handle a senior hire turning out to be junior?

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Re: Ask HN: How to handle a senior hire turning out to be junior?

#191

Post by ewoodh2o »

czhu12 wrote: post #178
ewoodh2o wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You absolutely need to consider how the rest of the team will interpret you actions. Most probably know this individual is underperforming already. Teammates usually have a sense before the manager does. But the way you handle it will also be observed. Others need to know you won’t just fire someone on the spot if performance doesn’t match expectations. Life happens, people have personal life issues that may occasion…

As a counter point to this, I’ve witnessed the practice of designing these processes to terminate someone creates a ton of burnout for the manager. Expect to spend at least 20% of your time managing the PIP. Documentation, one on ones, babying tickets being assigned, etc. On top of that I’ve never seen anyone get through a PIP successfully (n=6). Furthermore, it can also create a culture of just dismissing any candid…

It’s definitely not zero effort. But every time I’ve seen it draw out the timeline, it’s been because the expectations weren’t clear at hire time, nor in the PIP. You’re looking for a specific number of “significant PRs/week”, or story points, or something with subjectivity where you the manager still get to decide.

It’s a warning shot, and sometimes it only lasts a week.

BigCo HR can definitely make it take months, but the practice in general doesn’t have to be that way. We did this at startup size as small as 20 people, and I never regretted it.

Re: Ask HN: How to handle a senior hire turning out to be junior?

#192

Post by [deleted] »

UseofWeapons1 wrote: post #9

As you consider the decision to let them go, consider the impact on other people in your work place too. Other developers notice someone like that underperforming and getting overpaid, and it can hurt the good climate you aim for. It may feel bad to fire them, but it may be worse to keep them.

[deleted]

Re: Ask HN: How to handle a senior hire turning out to be junior?

#193

Post by drewcoo »

I really wonder about submissions like this. Is it real?

Is the poster a hiring manager who takes staffing problems to an internet forum instead of HR?

Is the poster someone else on the team hoping to generate responses on HN to try to coerce management into taking action?

The story is very one-sided and negative. How much of it is missing? How much is even true?

Re: Ask HN: How to handle a senior hire turning out to be junior?

#194

Post by ein0p »

If you're a small outfit you can't keep someone like that around. You need to part ways. You can't rescue this particular situation. You're screwing the guy/gal you hired, too - they're probably under a ton of stress, and high stress over the long term is not good for anyone. You should also recognize that this stress is not entirely their fault - it was _you_ who hired them, so you share some responsibility for this hiring failure. You may be tempted to demote, but I have not seen this actually work out in practice. I'd let that person go.

Re: Ask HN: How to handle a senior hire turning out to be junior?

#196

Post by grugagag »

ltbarcly3 wrote: post #103

It isn't impostor syndrome, they are literally an imposter. They committed fraud to get in the door, you didn't coerce them to get a much better paying job than they are qualified for. Now that they know they can't do the job, they are content to keep cashing paychecks and hope that your company is too hand wringing and soft to call them out. To your face they are worried and "what will we do, oh no what a mistake we…

I didnt get enough info from GP to make this judgement. The problem could be on HR hiring wrong person due to their interviewing incompetency. It could also be bad hire, but Im careful not to jump to conclusions, I’ve seem both scenarios IRL

Re: Ask HN: How to handle a senior hire turning out to be junior?

#198

Post by flurb »

> Or should we make this (perhaps justifiably, after their misleading self-presentation) the first time we let someone go for performance reasons?

How is having having good negotiating skills and being well-prepared considered misleading self-representation?

> We probably can't reduce the salary, so more productive devs might also be offended if they become aware of it.

So you're telling me you'd be the first manager in history who noticed someone's lacking in experience before your team members do? I think not. You're also giving away the possible fact that there might be enough of a disparity between the pay of a new hire and a (company) senior that the current employees might get upset.

> they might at some point realize they can't catch up to the level they were hired at without years of dedicated effort and thus quit or "quit internally", making our investment pointless.

How would you know? If you just hired them, you don't know, and obviously your hiring process doesn't work, so, again, you know nothing.

The fact firing is even an option, when you fucked up, and that this situation is even a thing, is telling me you're obviously oblivious to what "culture" you actually have.

Then again...

> It would probably take another 6-12 months of intense training to get them somewhat productive

Have you already spent 6-12 months of intense training on them? Then fire.

Re: Ask HN: How to handle a senior hire turning out to be junior?

#199

Post by mardifoufs »

rvnx wrote: post #25
PartiallyTyped wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Kernel development, simulations, numerical methods, ML, graphics, database internals, compilers, infosec engineering, etc.

10 years ago yes, but nowadays that domain-specific knowledge can be solved with a $20 ChatGPT subscription (as it simulates very well pair-programming and spitting out explanations for you). It sounds more like legacy / messy systems with no dev/staging platform, or very bad documentation, or even a terrible onboarding process if you really need 9 months for someone to deploy code.

It's the opposite imo. Knowledge specific stuff isn't what chatgpt excels at. It will be great for general programs but once you step into a niche, it just has a lot less data to work on

Re: Ask HN: How to handle a senior hire turning out to be junior?

#200

Post by solardev »

mardifoufs wrote: post #197
solardev wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does Europe handle it?

Contract work is a lot more common in Europe for a reason

I don't think I ever realized that's why there are so many discussions of "employment contracts" here on HN (which has a heavy European population, from what I can see). In my entire adult working life in the US, I've never once had an employment contract (and still have never seen one or heard of anyone else with one, either).
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