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Ask HN: How to handle a senior hire turning out to be junior?

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Re: Ask HN: How to handle a senior hire turning out to be junior?

#181

Post by ok_dad »

aPoCoMiLogin wrote: post #179
anthomtb wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Out of curiosity, did you ever figure out the disconnect that caused: > Excellent interview to turn into > couldn't even handle explorer.exe. I had to deal with a similar situation. The size and scale of my employer at the time meant the employee stuck around for multiple years. They never got worse but sure never got better. In our case, the problem was that our interview questions were based on algorithmic knowledg…

at my $work we are doing hires in 2 phases, first is mostly talk, and second is "trial day". on the "trial day", the candidate gets simple task (with few requirements and optional bonus points), that we could manage to do in 1/2 or 1/3 time that the candidate gets. the task has to solve something similar that we were working on, so that we test how the candidate perform in real scenario. in the past few years it work…

As long as you pay for the trial day. Otherwise, that’s hilariously entitled of your company to ask.

Re: Ask HN: How to handle a senior hire turning out to be junior?

#183

Post by hypeatei »

WesolyKubeczek wrote: post #152
hypeatei wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IMO, you don't lose a good engineering mindset or skills within a year or few months. Rusty, sure, but I'd say those skills quickly start to sharpen after working at a new job for a couple months.

> those skills quickly start to sharpen after working at a new job for a couple months. Given the comments here, you don't have the couple months to unrust your skills. You will be deemed unfit after the first one and fired, the prevailing sentiment seems to be.

Yeah, it's hard because sometimes you just know that it isn't going to work and others you can see promising signs. It's all very situational.

Re: Ask HN: How to handle a senior hire turning out to be junior?

#184

Post by PartiallyTyped »

CoastalCoder wrote: post #54
PartiallyTyped wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Kernel development, simulations, numerical methods, ML, graphics, database internals, compilers, infosec engineering, etc.

Agreed *, but (IMO) that's if you're starting with someone who has no prior experience in those topic areas. In my experience, usually some level of existing expertise is considered a prerequisite for senior dev positions. * Although a whole year sounds really long for a senior dev to get going in any of those topic areas.

A whole year for a senior is too much imho.

I moved to something entirely different and it took me less than a week to find something that is useful to contribute to on the side while I am trying to better understand the context and everything we are doing.

Being able to dive into different projects is, imho, a core skill for engineers and a good litmus test for seniority.

Re: Ask HN: How to handle a senior hire turning out to be junior?

#185

Post by pavel_lishin »

bob1029 wrote: post #175
anthomtb wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Out of curiosity, did you ever figure out the disconnect that caused: > Excellent interview to turn into > couldn't even handle explorer.exe. I had to deal with a similar situation. The size and scale of my employer at the time meant the employee stuck around for multiple years. They never got worse but sure never got better. In our case, the problem was that our interview questions were based on algorithmic knowledg…

Our flaw was similar. We were asking high level questions. At no point did we ask things like "have you ever used Microsoft Windows" or "have you ever used a desktop computer". It would seem we cannot take these questions for granted anymore. The best strategy I've come up with is to build an intern program and source talent from that lower cost/risk pool. Pulling high level employees off the street was almost always…

We had an apprenticeship/internship program, and it worked out great. It gave new grads (from both colleges and bootcamps) on-the-job experience as well as active mentorship, it gave us an extended but time-limited way to verify that these folks were actually good at their job, and for the most part, they were all excellent software engineers, and we extended offers to something like 75% of them, and 50% of those accepted and worked there for awhile before moving on to another company.

imo, a very worthwhile investment of time and money.

Re: Ask HN: How to handle a senior hire turning out to be junior?

#186

Post by ZeroGravitas »

hrsnafu wrote: post #182

> there was a breakdown in internal communication where HR was under the impression we wanted to hire at any cost despite us giving the candidate a mediocre rating If HR hired the person despite a mediocre rating then they're the ones that need to be sacked.

If someone had used the phrase "hire at any cost" to HR then a candidate being mediocre seems to not be a fatal flaw.

Indeed, it feels as if the OP would be relatively happy if they'd hired a mediocre senior dev, but feel this guy isn't even that.

Re: Ask HN: How to handle a senior hire turning out to be junior?

#187

Post by temporarely »

It is not clear at all if you have even taken the most basic step -- provide feedback for this employee. It's just not clear how to reconcile this impression -- nothing has been said at all -- with the plea for "rescue" from this situation. You mentioned "personal development", so this is a great opportunity to develop those management skills.

You need to provide feedback for your employee. Have a frank discussion about their performance and try and find out what is the actual problem. Assuming there has been little to no actual conversations, it seems you are merely projecting various ailments here. Maybe their cat died, maybe whatever. We simply do not know.

Re: Ask HN: How to handle a senior hire turning out to be junior?

#189

Post by soneca »

mushufasa wrote: post #14

>I guess in most companies this would be a no-brainer, but we're a small outfit with a focus on personal development, intrinsic motivation, good climate, and low turnover. Do you think there is any way to rescue this situation? Or should we make this (perhaps justifiably, after their misleading self-presentation) the first time we let someone go for performance reasons? You have to fire. No hiring process is 100%. It…

Not only that, but also not optimizing for the happiness and satisfaction of the people working at the company. In particular those working with this person. Everyone will have a worst work environment to allow one person to get away with not being earnest during the hiring process

Re: Ask HN: How to handle a senior hire turning out to be junior?

#190

Post by ewoodh2o »

ethbr1 wrote: post #143
ewoodh2o wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You absolutely need to consider how the rest of the team will interpret you actions. Most probably know this individual is underperforming already. Teammates usually have a sense before the manager does. But the way you handle it will also be observed. Others need to know you won’t just fire someone on the spot if performance doesn’t match expectations. Life happens, people have personal life issues that may occasion…

Do you have thoughts on offering PIP vs demotion and salary adjustment? If the individual doesn't have the skills (or seemingly temperament) for a senior role, I'm not sure PIP is setting them up for success. Versus demotion with possibility of promotion allows them to perform at their level of competence, leaving open the possibility for them to chose (or not) to aim for promotion.

I haven’t personally seen that work in practice. I’ve been in situations where we considered it, but people usually have picked a role with salary considerations in mind, and often can’t really walk that back, and if they do it’s demotivating. And they may be able to perform elsewhere in a way that meets the need at your senior comp level.

I think it’s easiest to cut the relationship and let them start clean somewhere else.

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