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Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

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Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#801
post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Spain has exceptionally low wages in the IT sector though, taking cost of living into account and all.

Why don't people move to a place with higher wages? Spain a member of the EU. And, why do people enter IT in Spain, if the wages are so terrible?

The Spanish population in general ain't that good when it comes to English and the quality of living in Spain is, in general, quite good. Weather and food are hard to replace.

Which begs the question: "Well why don't they work remotely from Spain then?" and the answer to that is that the Spanish IT sector does a whole lot of that to begin with, so a business in the market for it can just hire one of the many consulting business there.

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#802
post #444

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> He did not rent the place out, but preferred to keep it to themselves as a pleasant place to spend a few weeks to months as they are getting old now. But after this incident he sold it quickly. If it's their primary residence, then it's not considered "occupation" but rather "breaking and entering", and contacting the local police would get the criminals removed quickly, without much fuss. It sounds more like it wa…

I'm just curious because I have a only very limited understanding of the situation there but surely it must have been considerably worse back in 2007-2008 compared to now? Since housing prices seem to still be ~30% lower inflation adjusted currently than they were before the GFC.

I don’t think immigration issues were as bad then.

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#803
post #412

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the other hand of issues like this, is the people forced to move away from their neighborhoods because outsiders keep acquiring "investment properties" and price out the current tenants. We're finally getting more protections from this, but there been a lot of hurt because of this already. Entire neighborhoods in Barcelona (like Barceloneta) had generational families being forced away because of issues like this.…

That's true. The buyers of real estate on a large scale are often transnational investment funds. And they sometimes sit on empty properties for decades, waiting for them to accrue value. Some kind of regulation is certainly required. Or higher taxation of second homes. But squatting contributes nothing to solving this problem. It just promotes anarchy.

For every buyer there is a seller. Are we to understand that the sellers are being forced to sell, and aren’t being paid? Because otherwise it sounds awfully like foreign capital is flowing into the economy, which is hard to describe as a disaster.

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#804
post #599

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. It doesn't matter whether it is a primary residence, secondary residence, or an investment property. It is the property of someone else. Without permission, opening the door or window and going into it is breaking and entering. And do not try to argue that breaking, entering, and squatting somehow reduces the housing shortage — the effect is the exact opposite. With insecure property access and rights, people wil…

> people will be LESS likely to invest in fixing up unliveable places. Someone's still paying for the house flipping. By definition the flipper makes a margin between what they paid, the repairs, and the price they get at the end. So why should we encourage house flipping instead of having howners buy the damaged property and pay for a renovation company ? Housing wise the end result is the same, minus the flipping.…

>>Someone's still paying for the house flipping.

Of course they are - even in the case of 'flipping', they are at least working to add value. Barring complete incompetence, the repaired and upgraded place is MORE valuable.

>>By definition the flipper makes a margin between what they paid, the repairs, and the price they get at the end.

NO; there is nothing 'by definition' about it. While investors all desire to make a profit, many actually lose money, either due to poor planning and/or execution of upgrades or just ill-timed market downturns. The RISK of loss is reason to justify a profit. Moreover, SQUATTERS ADD ANOTHER RISK that almost guarantees a loss — even if they do zero damage and somehow the costly eviction process is free, the loss of time itself costs money.

>>So why should we encourage house flipping instead of having howners buy the damaged property and pay for a renovation company ? Housing wise the end result is the same, minus the flipping.

YES, I agree, this would be better. However, the result is not necessarily the same. While many flippers have poor or overly trendy tastes so that their upgrades don't add value, individual homeowners are even more unskilled. Plus, people upgrading buildings for a first or second living bring advantages and economies of scale, including buying materials at trade and/or bulk prices vs retail prices, ability to employ workers more efficiently across multiple properties at once, etc. OTOH, the homeowners have the advantage of caring more because they'll live there.

But notice, BOTH of these are ONLY MADE WORSE option by squatters. An investor may take a loss on one of a bunch of properties due to a squatter. But a homeowner who buys a run-down home to upgrade and move into, can be bankrupted by a squatter. Now, you have two homeless families, no just one.

There is simply no justification for giving people the right to steal other's property just by breaking and entering.

If we want to make a process, perhaps akin to found valuables, whereby someone can claim a property, and the previous owner must show that s/he is actively working to upgrade it, I could support that.

I might even support some kind of people can move in, but must cause no damage and move out when caught; a kind of 'no harm — no foul' rule could be reasonable. But, just "gee that looks empty, let's move in, and we have rights greater than the owner!", is a hard NO.

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#805

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At least here in France, the "housing" they offer is just a mattress in a huge room with no intimacy and dangerous people around. Most homeless people are skeptical at first, but after getting robbed/assaulted they certainly will refuse temporary housing for the rest of their life. If the authorities really cared about the homeless, they would requisition empty dwellings and assign them individually so people have a…

Why would you want the authorities to requisition dwellings when they could buy them instead? What is it about this issue that makes so many people wish to treat landlords harshly?

> What is it about this issue that makes so many people wish to treat landlords harshly?

Compassion.

They see someone without a roof over their head, while at the same time seeing agencies/owners owning multiple properties just to enrich themselves.

It's not hard to understand why people are more compassionate towards the people with nothing, compared to how they see the people with a lot.

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#806

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What's your argument for landlordism not being theft? Shouldn't those people get a job too? Or is theft only a crime when poor people do it? It is very simple. Theft is when you take something from someone without voluntary agreement. renters and landlords enter voluntary agreement. If a landlord has a job or not seems irrelevant. They didn't steal anything from anyone. Everything they have, they obtained through m…

> It is very simple. Theft is when you take something from someone without voluntary agreement. renters and landlords enter voluntary agreement. If a landlord has a job or not seems irrelevant. They didn't steal anything from anyone. Everything they have, they obtained through mutually consensual exchange. Wrong. The vast majority of people don't voluntarily agree to rent, they are coerced. "Pay rent or be homeless"…

>Really, though, I'm less interested in defining landlordism=theft. We shouldn't need to prove it fits your arbitrary definition of theft to say it's wrong: if you don't get that causing homelessness for personal gain is wrong, your moral compass is pretty fundamentally broken.

I think landlords prevent more homelessness than they create. Homes dont magically pop into existence. They are built for sale. I think people pushed into homelessness has little to do with profit seeking landlords. No landlords means nobody gets housing that cant afford to own

You seem to be freely conflating homelessness with regular people paying rent. This is misleading debate tactic to advance the entitlement of renters.

People who can pay rent, but want another's possession for cheaper, is simple entitlement.

Homelessness is a social and legal choice to make cheap housing illegal, or not provide social housing for those that do not work. This is orthognal to landlords. Someone with a vacation home or airBNB isnt the bottleneck keeping junkie bob from having a shelter.

I think pinning it on landlords is childish. You can help junkie bob and choose not to, because you dont want them in your house, or to pay for their shelter. Blaming landlords is simply a way for people to say it isnt their problem or responsibility.

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#807
post #784

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>"I bought this place and now you have to pay to live there" which is the highest form of doing nothing. How can that be worse than "I didnt even buy this place, and now I get to live here"

How can that be worse than "there are millions of unoccupied places, most housing belongs to the same people who don't need it, and yet there are millions living in the street" It's not just about you

the claim is who is doing "nothing".

Working, saving, and buying a house is doing a lot more than doing nothing and expecting something

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#808

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There's clearly a gap between imaginary noble okupas addressing housing crisis via occupation of unused bank property and reality of weed smoking anarchists and their collaborating deoccupying mafia harassing mostly not-so-rich middle class, who can't afford the security measures the rich can. I had a friend who bought a house that needed a lot of work. Before he could get started on the remodel, someone broke in t…

It can be surprising to be on the other end of something and see the lack of sympathy. I went on a group hike once and somehow ended up telling people that my house had been broken into. It was a bummer. Actual monetary damages about 10k, but so many little gifts and heirlooms that were irreplaceable. It's hard to express the sense of violation. They also stole some of my wife's underwear which was just gross. Someon…

I have several teachers in my extended family, so I hear a lot of teacher stories. There’s a similarly weird phenomenon that happens when they have to do major discipline like suspension or expulsion: Critics come out to heap blame on the teachers for “failing the students”. They defend the child as the victim and heap blame, either collectively or individually, on the teachers involved. Some times they hand wave it away as blaming society. However, the one thing that is not allowed in these discussions is any appearance e that the child has responsibility for the consequences of their actions. Note that some of these children are nearly 18 years old at time of expulsion.

For some people, the only lens they have is a 1-D spectrum of perceived societal power. Blame can only flow up the spectrum and victimhood can only flow downward.

As soon as anything violates this idea of how justice, blame, and victimhood should work, they jump in to defend the side they think should be the victim in their worldview. They inject unrelated or assumed narratives to try to load up the victimhood of the lower side (living wage) while trying to downplay any victimhood on the upper side of their 1-D worldview (insurance can pay for it, you have enough money to replace things). By rewriting the narrative with something new that they injected , their worldview is protected and they can continue to feel correct.

In the teacher example above, this has a sad side effect where the problem students now know they have advocates to protect them despite their bad behavior. Some of them are becoming very good at reaching out to those advocates to share a sob story and replace their narrative with one of being the victim on social media. It’s creating a scary environment when kids know that not only are there no consequences for bad behavior, they know they can find someone to help defend them for it.

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#809
post #805

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would you want the authorities to requisition dwellings when they could buy them instead? What is it about this issue that makes so many people wish to treat landlords harshly?

> What is it about this issue that makes so many people wish to treat landlords harshly? Compassion. They see someone without a roof over their head, while at the same time seeing agencies/owners owning multiple properties just to enrich themselves. It's not hard to understand why people are more compassionate towards the people with nothing, compared to how they see the people with a lot .

Sure, but does it not occur to them that property owners might be performing an important function such that a policy that causes most of them to leave landlording might worsen the situation of homeless people and other poor people?

Suppose the government instituted a rule that applies to any game developer and in particular to the developer's office or whatever structure he likes to be inside when he is developing games or meeting with the other developers working on the same game. The rule says that if the game developer leaves his office and fails to hire a security guard to watch the property, then 72 hours after the game developer's departure, anyone (including career criminals) have a legal right to take over the office (even if the developer's office is his home). Wouldn't that curtail -- possibly severely -- the quantity and the quality of new games developed in whatever jurisdiction the rule applies to? Or at least raise the price of games (to cover the cost of the security guards and to compensate developers for the hassle) with the result that some of the consumers who used to be able to afford to buy video games are now priced out of the market?

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#810

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There's clearly a gap between imaginary noble okupas addressing housing crisis via occupation of unused bank property and reality of weed smoking anarchists and their collaborating deoccupying mafia harassing mostly not-so-rich middle class, who can't afford the security measures the rich can. I had a friend who bought a house that needed a lot of work. Before he could get started on the remodel, someone broke in t…

Living in Spain, I have friends from both ends of the spectrum: those speculating with houses and those who cannot afford to buy one. We can blame the okupas, calling them lazy if that suits you. But we are missing half the story if we don't consider the other end of the spectrum: people buying property purely for speculative investment. For example, consider the housing crisis in Majorca [1]. Since we have enough mo…

If you can’t afford a home its still not justifying squatting. Just rent like everyone else in that situation the world over. At the end of the day homes aren’t priced to be impossible to afford for everyone or else they wouldn’t sell at all. You just might need a better job than the first one you can find. Afaik Spain seems to do better with producing housing to meet demand than the US or a lot of other places too.
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