Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem • Hacker News Board

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#631

Post by toss1 » Thu, Jun 06, 2024, 9:10 PM UTC

jddj wrote: post #626

toss1 wrote: post #599

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. It doesn't matter whether it is a primary residence, secondary residence, or an investment property. It is the property of someone else. Without permission, opening the door or window and going into it is breaking and entering. And do not try to argue that breaking, entering, and squatting somehow reduces the housing shortage — the effect is the exact opposite. With insecure property access and rights, people wil…

There is a genuine difference though, as in, the law in Spain treats the two scenarios differently. I'm not sure where the GP's situation took place but given the article is about Spain the person you're replying to could probably be forgiven for thinking it was there

Yup, if there is such a difference under Spanish law, then that law is extremely myopic, passed by a herd of idiots.

It will certainly lead to LESS housing, not more.

Yikes

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#632

Post by petsfed » Thu, Jun 06, 2024, 9:12 PM UTC

toss1 wrote: post #599

diggan wrote: post #502

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's besides the point what I think is morally wrong or right. There is a legal difference between "occupying" someone's primary residence, and occupying other types of properties. The first isn't considered "occupying" here but rather "breaking and entering", and the local police are very quick at acting on those types of crimes, especially if the criminals are still inside the property.

No. It doesn't matter whether it is a primary residence, secondary residence, or an investment property. It is the property of someone else. Without permission, opening the door or window and going into it is breaking and entering. And do not try to argue that breaking, entering, and squatting somehow reduces the housing shortage — the effect is the exact opposite. With insecure property access and rights, people wil…

Or the owners of those 100k units that are just left to rot can accept that their "investment" can't (and shouldn't) make them money faster than inflation, and lower the asking price.

The scenario you describe only exists because the number of "investors" buying up properties to flip and turn a profit vastly outnumbers the number people looking to buy their personal residence, and have the skills and disposition to fix it up themselves.

And judging by the build quality of a lot of flipped properties, the investors don't have the skills or disposition either.

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#633

Post by HDThoreaun » Thu, Jun 06, 2024, 9:14 PM UTC

harimau777 wrote: post #331

peter335 wrote: post #309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think these are understandable and well intended questions! But they also makes it seem like you're not very familiar with standard economic analysis. I would encourage you to read The Rent is Too Damn High by Yglesias which is by an american (leftist) who I think has a much better set of ideas for improving the lives of renters than "occupation friendly" housing regulations and other "zero sum" ideas. And yes, buy…

Can you give any information on what he advocates? I wonder if the difference could be that the policies that he advocate would require bought and paid for politicians to act while squatting is something that an individual can do?

Its very simple. We need to build more housing. This can be done via zoning reform combined with land value tax to punish speculators.

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#634

Post by Vegenoid » Thu, Jun 06, 2024, 9:16 PM UTC

tiborsaas wrote: post #435

diggan wrote: post #412

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the other hand of issues like this, is the people forced to move away from their neighborhoods because outsiders keep acquiring "investment properties" and price out the current tenants. We're finally getting more protections from this, but there been a lot of hurt because of this already. Entire neighborhoods in Barcelona (like Barceloneta) had generational families being forced away because of issues like this.…

This is a complex problem, I understand that rent is a sensitive issue. But sustaining a system that criminals actively exploit is probably resulting in the worst possible outcome for everyone. He did not rent the place out, but preferred to keep it to themselves as a pleasant place to spend a few weeks to months as they are getting old now. But after this incident he sold it quickly.

Without making judgement myself, this is exactly what squatters, and those who support them, would consider a success story: 1. The house has wealthy owners who treat it as an investment 2. The house remains empty almost all of the time 3. Squatters occupy the residence and get more utility out of it than the owners 4. As a result, the owners sell the residence, maybe to someone who will live in it or rent it (but maybe not). The lives of the previous owners are largely unchanged.

I'm not exactly pro-squatting, but this isn't a very sympathetic story.

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#635

Post by HDThoreaun » Thu, Jun 06, 2024, 9:20 PM UTC

jorvi wrote: post #601

peter335 wrote: post #333

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I stand by my characterization, this comment is symptomatic of the same problem. That a country with high unemployment has the nr of workers in the construction sector as the major limitation in construction of new housing seems very implausible. What about zoning laws? To the extent a country with high unemployment can’t find enough construction workers it’s likely to be some kind of government/regulatory failure. R…

High unemployment? Boomers retiring will create a permanent labor shortage for the foreseeable future. People just don’t want to be construction workers, and who can blame them? Especially with how construction workers got screwed over after 2008. That nuked the construction sector so hard that employement in construction has just barely recovered to 2008 levels. It would be beautiful if housing was the pure demand-s…

Spains unemployment is 12%. That is among the highest for developed countries.

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#636

Post by carlosjobim » Thu, Jun 06, 2024, 9:20 PM UTC

Manuel_D wrote: post #579

carlosjobim wrote: post #569

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When a renter buys an apartment or house to live in, that means the place they rented becomes vacant. It is the most basic math, addition and subtraction. Lower real estate prices means less renters and thus lower rents. Unless you conjure people into the country by immigration.

Making renting riskier doesn't inherently make property less expensive. If a shortage of rental properties makes more people want to buy condos and houses, then there's more demand for condos and houses. Making renting riskier also means that apartment buildings are less profitable and less likely to be built. A more likely outcome is that condos and houses get more expensive because of the shortage of apartments. An…

If letting becomes a bad return on money, leaving the house empty is an even worse return of money. So you sell, and thereby get money for better investments, while at the same time the house gets an owner tenant. Real estate is fixed and cannot be physically transferred.

As for apartments, they will still be financed by people who intend to live in them. Removing the landlord removes a huge margin, because you're nourishing a stranger.

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#637

Post by shanemhansen » Thu, Jun 06, 2024, 9:26 PM UTC

Aurornis wrote: post #358

rudnevr wrote: post #264

I live in Spain and own property in Spain. There's clearly a gap between imaginary noble okupas addressing housing crisis via occupation of unused bank property and reality of weed smoking anarchists and their collaborating deoccupying mafia harassing mostly not-so-rich middle class, who can't afford the security measures the rich can. It's not a small problem, there's like 12K cases per year last time I checked. Eve…

> There's clearly a gap between imaginary noble okupas addressing housing crisis via occupation of unused bank property and reality of weed smoking anarchists and their collaborating deoccupying mafia harassing mostly not-so-rich middle class, who can't afford the security measures the rich can. I had a friend who bought a house that needed a lot of work. Before he could get started on the remodel, someone broke in t…

It can be surprising to be on the other end of something and see the lack of sympathy.

I went on a group hike once and somehow ended up telling people that my house had been broken into. It was a bummer. Actual monetary damages about 10k, but so many little gifts and heirlooms that were irreplaceable. It's hard to express the sense of violation. They also stole some of my wife's underwear which was just gross.

Someone replied with "well maybe if they were paid a living wage they wouldn't have to steal". Because obviously stealing my wife's underwear is much like stealing a loaf of bread to survive ala les miserables.

It's like all nuance has been lost. Some people think that if you believe that the housing situation isn't great then you just have to be pro anything that calls itself a solution.

I hope they eventually figure out that's not necessary.

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#638

Post by jjav » Thu, Jun 06, 2024, 9:28 PM UTC

kerkeslager wrote: post #615

jjav wrote: post #586

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But we are missing half the story if we don't consider the other end of the spectrum No, not really. Theft is not the answer. Consider laws restricting how many houses a person can own, or maybe an increasing property tax on each unit. These are good solutions. Condoning theft has no other side to the story, it's always wrong.

> No, not really. Theft is not the answer. Well HN's favored solution seems to be not caring that people are homeless until they start scaring rich people, at which point you lock them up in "mental health" institutions that are less about helping them and more about keeping them away from rich people. My solution is not letting people own homes they don't live in, but that's going to crash a lot of rich people's inv…

> I'd prefer they stole from the people actually causing the problem, the rich who buy up housing and make it unaffordable.

If you actually want to protest the system this is what you should do.

Go occupy the vacant summer homes of rich politicians and CEOs.

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#639

Post by rudnevr » Thu, Jun 06, 2024, 9:31 PM UTC

pimterry wrote: post #484

rudnevr wrote: post #414

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Neither huge amount of somewhat legit cases of 'unused', nor media coverage doesn't make it right. I also wouldn't easily compare the murder count (which are hardly underreported) and occupation count (which most likely are, because legal way is way more expensive and lengthy).

> I also wouldn't easily compare the murder count (which are hardly underreported) and occupation count (which most likely are, because legal way is way more expensive and lengthy). The legal process is definitely lengthy for actual occupation (usurpación) where the average eviction time is now but for people breaking & entering into your personal residence (allanamiento) it's not at all. If you can demonstrate this…

* Media hype (and political discussion) is overblown from both sides. That's partially what keeps the left in the news because otherwise they don't have much to offer against capitalism unless maybe Hamas puts some show. And carefully calculated policies and solving problems is not rock-n-roll enough.

* The victims here are everyone who okupas can reach, the limit is not some imaginary moral boundary of the trespasser, but a sheer cost/reward balance. And it's not obvious where you should draw the line. Is a small shop worth it less than a relatively well off private citizen? How small a shop should be to be protected?

Arguably in the countries where the banks are protected the private citizens look even more protected, but I'm not going into that.

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#640

Post by burnished » Thu, Jun 06, 2024, 9:32 PM UTC

jjav wrote: post #586

kaskakokos wrote: post #419

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Living in Spain, I have friends from both ends of the spectrum: those speculating with houses and those who cannot afford to buy one. We can blame the okupas, calling them lazy if that suits you. But we are missing half the story if we don't consider the other end of the spectrum: people buying property purely for speculative investment. For example, consider the housing crisis in Majorca [1]. Since we have enough mo…

> But we are missing half the story if we don't consider the other end of the spectrum No, not really. Theft is not the answer. Consider laws restricting how many houses a person can own, or maybe an increasing property tax on each unit. These are good solutions. Condoning theft has no other side to the story, it's always wrong.

Theft is a violation of property laws. If you recognize that property laws are in some senses arbitrary/designed to fit a purpose (which you seem to, since you are proposing changes to them) then I think you should also recognize that treating theft as a purely black and white topic does not make sense.

Not advocating for the burglary higher up the thread, still a shit thing to do so someone