Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem • Hacker News Board

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#331

Post by harimau777 » Thu, Jun 06, 2024, 1:57 PM UTC

peter335 wrote: post #309

dr__mario wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok, but first: is it financially risky right now to own properties? No, based on the data we have. Second: can renters be hurt even more? Are landlords the most vulnerable people right now? The situation is pretty awful right now, while at the same time there are people whose sole contribution to society is "owning flats". And I agree on increasing property taxes (any progressive taxes over capital would do).

I think these are understandable and well intended questions! But they also makes it seem like you're not very familiar with standard economic analysis. I would encourage you to read The Rent is Too Damn High by Yglesias which is by an american (leftist) who I think has a much better set of ideas for improving the lives of renters than "occupation friendly" housing regulations and other "zero sum" ideas. And yes, buy…

Can you give any information on what he advocates?

I wonder if the difference could be that the policies that he advocate would require bought and paid for politicians to act while squatting is something that an individual can do?

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#332

Post by Aurornis » Thu, Jun 06, 2024, 1:57 PM UTC

pimterry wrote: post #277

rudnevr wrote: post #264

I live in Spain and own property in Spain. There's clearly a gap between imaginary noble okupas addressing housing crisis via occupation of unused bank property and reality of weed smoking anarchists and their collaborating deoccupying mafia harassing mostly not-so-rich middle class, who can't afford the security measures the rich can. It's not a small problem, there's like 12K cases per year last time I checked. Eve…

> It's not a small problem, there's like 12K cases per year last time I checked. https://maldita.es/malditateexplica/20221026/datos-okupacion... has the actual data (in Spanish): * 10-17k cases of occupation annually (rising until 2021, but down in 2022 and further down in 2023: https://www.cronista.com/espana/actualidad-es/adios-okupas-c... ) * Of those ~15k, 5% are actually occupation of somebody's residence (allan…

> That is to say: it is a problem (the 500 - 1000 cases per year nationwide of occupation of people's homes is clearly problematic) but it's not a really widespread problem for most middle-class people (the vast majority of people even in the middle classes do not own totally unused property).

I don’t understand the point of trying to downplay or diminish this problem.

Is dividing the victims along arbitrary class lines and arguing that most victims are not “middle class” supposed to make it better? It’s a problem regardless of who owns the property.

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#333

Post by peter335 » Thu, Jun 06, 2024, 2:00 PM UTC

jorvi wrote: post #324

peter335 wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you make it financially risky to own a rental property you're also making it more risky and thus less profitable to buy and rent out apartments. This hurts both renters and the potential landlords. It would be much better to just increase property taxes.. Speaking as a Dane, this kind kind of economically illiterate leftist lawlessness is an important reason why Spain is poorer both poorer and has a worse welfare…

Currently there is a hard limit on how many properties per year can be built due to lack of construction workers + training positions for new workers + being sure of work in the next decade(s) due to economic cycles. Since the factor limiting supply is not cost or demand, prices keep ever-increasing with no gains for society; just filling the coffers of the haves. You should really watch out with insults of economic…

I stand by my characterization, this comment is symptomatic of the same problem. That a country with high unemployment has the nr of workers in the construction sector as the major limitation in construction of new housing seems very implausible. What about zoning laws? To the extent a country with high unemployment can’t find enough construction workers it’s likely to be some kind of government/regulatory failure. Read Matthew Yglesias, he’s great

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#334

Post by harimau777 » Thu, Jun 06, 2024, 2:01 PM UTC

ncruces wrote: post #305

Planktonne wrote: post #269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the 80yo people are living in the house, then it isn't vacant.

That's not how property taxes work here. Also, you need to figure out how you define vacant, and how to track it. If I relocated for work, and use the house 3 months a year and every other month for a weekend, is it vacant? How do you tell?

It seems to me that we could start with a conservative approach and adjust from there. For example, define a property as vacant if it isn't occupied for 1 continuous month or a total of three months out of the year.

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#335

Post by javilovesmambo » Thu, Jun 06, 2024, 2:02 PM UTC

ricardobayes wrote: post #247

otherme123 wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First, I think okupas are a very small problem, mainly used for propaganda. But how are real state companies feeding the problem? The problem is that there's no houses available, because politicians create artificial scarcity. In any local government, the stronger department is "Urbanism", decides if you get rich by allowing you to develop on your property, or you stay poor because you don't get the permits. Come on,…

It partially boils down to Spain having very little new construction. In a little eastern european country with 10 million people like Hungary there are roughly just as many new developments on the market as in a big country like Spain, with 40M population. Hungary: more than 2k new houses, and there are more than 5k new apartments to buy. https://ingatlan.com/lista/elado+haz+uj-epitesu In Madrid province, there are…

I live in Munich, for 6+ years now. I have never seen renting prices below 900€/month. Would you mind sharing your source of data?

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#336

Post by peter335 » Thu, Jun 06, 2024, 2:03 PM UTC

harimau777 wrote: post #331

peter335 wrote: post #309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think these are understandable and well intended questions! But they also makes it seem like you're not very familiar with standard economic analysis. I would encourage you to read The Rent is Too Damn High by Yglesias which is by an american (leftist) who I think has a much better set of ideas for improving the lives of renters than "occupation friendly" housing regulations and other "zero sum" ideas. And yes, buy…

Can you give any information on what he advocates? I wonder if the difference could be that the policies that he advocate would require bought and paid for politicians to act while squatting is something that an individual can do?

The one line explanation is that politicians should allow people to build more housing.

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#337

Post by giraffe_lady » Thu, Jun 06, 2024, 2:12 PM UTC

Aurornis wrote: post #332

pimterry wrote: post #277

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's not a small problem, there's like 12K cases per year last time I checked. https://maldita.es/malditateexplica/20221026/datos-okupacion... has the actual data (in Spanish): * 10-17k cases of occupation annually (rising until 2021, but down in 2022 and further down in 2023: https://www.cronista.com/espana/actualidad-es/adios-okupas-c... ) * Of those ~15k, 5% are actually occupation of somebody's residence (allan…

> That is to say: it is a problem (the 500 - 1000 cases per year nationwide of occupation of people's homes is clearly problematic) but it's not a really widespread problem for most middle-class people (the vast majority of people even in the middle classes do not own totally unused property). I don’t understand the point of trying to downplay or diminish this problem. Is dividing the victims along arbitrary class li…

> Is dividing the victims along arbitrary class lines and arguing that most victims are not “middle class” supposed to make it better?

The class lines aren't arbitrary: a squatter in someone's unused third vacation property or whatever is causing much less harm than a squatter claiming someone's only residence while they're out of town.

So yes, the dynamics of who it happens to can make it better or worse. The only reason that wouldn't be the case is if what you consider bad about it is a violation of abstract property owner rights, rather than the potential material harms.

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#338

Post by Manuel_D » Thu, Jun 06, 2024, 2:14 PM UTC

harperlee wrote: post #317

peter335 wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you make it financially risky to own a rental property you're also making it more risky and thus less profitable to buy and rent out apartments. This hurts both renters and the potential landlords. It would be much better to just increase property taxes.. Speaking as a Dane, this kind kind of economically illiterate leftist lawlessness is an important reason why Spain is poorer both poorer and has a worse welfare…

> you're also making it more risky and thus less profitable to buy and rent out apartments You would be surprised about the sheer number of spaniards that would welcome this second-order effect. In the last ~10 years, renting has skyrocketed, due to the discovery of the spanish renting market by international money, and renting laws relaxation (demand side). Meanwhile, this has not increased the supply of homes, as i…

I think you misunderstood what the above commenter meant when they wrote that risk of squatters makes it "less profitable to buy and rent out apartments".

Because of the additional risks of squatters, landowner will either have to take additional security measures (and make up the costs with higher rent) or accept the risk of squatters (and make up that risk with higher rent). In either case, the rent getsor expensive.

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#339

Post by santialbo » Thu, Jun 06, 2024, 2:15 PM UTC

pimterry wrote: post #277

rudnevr wrote: post #264

I live in Spain and own property in Spain. There's clearly a gap between imaginary noble okupas addressing housing crisis via occupation of unused bank property and reality of weed smoking anarchists and their collaborating deoccupying mafia harassing mostly not-so-rich middle class, who can't afford the security measures the rich can. It's not a small problem, there's like 12K cases per year last time I checked. Eve…

> It's not a small problem, there's like 12K cases per year last time I checked. https://maldita.es/malditateexplica/20221026/datos-okupacion... has the actual data (in Spanish): * 10-17k cases of occupation annually (rising until 2021, but down in 2022 and further down in 2023: https://www.cronista.com/espana/actualidad-es/adios-okupas-c... ) * Of those ~15k, 5% are actually occupation of somebody's residence (allan…

Occupation of bank-owned homes also causes a lot of trouble. I hope you never have to experience living next to squatters, as among other things, you might end up paying for their exaggeratedly high utilities.

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#340

Post by Manuel_D » Thu, Jun 06, 2024, 2:17 PM UTC

ncruces wrote: post #248

amunozo wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And old rotten building sitting anywhere in a city is worth way more than 10.000€. Even if the building is not in good shape, the land is still valuable.

Right, and then the 80yo people living in a centenary house in a gentrified neighborhood suddenly get a 10x tax increase because the next door building got sold to be remodeled as a luxury condo, and drove property values through the roof. That's good, because if they can't pay, their house is up for remodelling too. /sarcasm

If the property tax goes up by 10x, then that 80 year old couple has seen a 10x return on their real estate investment. They can easily take out a reverse mortgage to pay the property tax for the rest of their lives.