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Vulkan1.3 on the M1 in one month

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Re: Vulkan1.3 on the M1 in one month

#341

Post by pjmlp »

talldayo wrote: post #326
pjmlp wrote: post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Only if we don't care about those using devices where OpenGL ES is still more stable, with less buggy drivers. If you only care about latest Android versions, and Samsung and Google phones, sure go Vulkan.

My brother in Christ, OpenGL ES is officially depreciated on all Apple platforms. It is not "more stable, with less buggy drivers", I've used it.

I thought we are talking about Android, and which APIs makes business sense, when AAA actually want to get paid, instead of having to pay back store returns.

Re: Vulkan1.3 on the M1 in one month

#342

Post by talldayo »

dieortin wrote: post #337
talldayo wrote: post #320

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Apple also offers a D3D12 porting toolkit now Now they do. After 5 years of people begging them for DXVK, Apple gives us... a downstream fork of DXVK retooled for Metal. I really just feel bad for Mac owners. Like; you could be playing Apex Legends with us, but can't. Like I said, these changes to Asahi will likely make it easier than MacOS to play games on. Who would use MacOS for gaming when Steam Play works out-…

I doubt anyone buys a Mac to install Asahi on it

We'll just have to see. Do you think that will still be true when compliant Vulkan 1.3 drivers exist, and Asahi users get to play anticheat-enabled online games?

I remember a lot of Mac users that paid for Bootcamp for this very purpose, back in the day. It might even be more appealing since Asahi is free.

Re: Vulkan1.3 on the M1 in one month

#343

Post by talldayo »

pjmlp wrote: post #340
talldayo wrote: post #328

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are literally comparing a bunch of gambling apps to a library of desktop gaming experiences. "It is still Metal, regardless" you say, with your mind scrolling full of Zynga dice-rolling games and Supercell micro-transaction machines.

I am comparing what brings money home, big boys club money, versus hippie feel good complaints.

I am comparing where the quality titles live. I (and most people who have the freedom of choosing) do not even pay a second thought to those shitty mobile casino apps.

Crazy stuff like that happens, when you have access to quality entertainment and not drip-feed gatcha games.

Re: Vulkan1.3 on the M1 in one month

#345

Post by talldayo »

pjmlp wrote: post #339
talldayo wrote: post #324

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Go ahead, blame literally every single person except the lead maintainer and developer of the project.

The reality is that Google, AMD and Intel have more than enough time since 2009, to provide a developer experience, and drivers, that would make people actually use OpenCL instead of CUDA. Instead, Google created the proprietary Renderscript for Android, while AMD and Intel kept delivering broken drivers, partial implementations of OpenCL, never delivered a proper OpenCL 2.x implemenation with mature C++ support, IDE…

It wasn't Google, AMD and Intel's job to improve the developer experience. You can chew them out for bad drivers, but they did improve and now AMD and Intel's OpenCL implementations are the reference-quality ones.

Again, you can blame everyone else for doing their own thing but the project only has one father that could estrange it. Apple's blindness killing OpenCL makes everything in Microsoft and Google's graveyard look reasonable by comparison. If Apple wants a repeat of the Metal for gaming situation in AI, they are more than welcome to self-sabotage themselves until they run out of energy.

Re: Vulkan1.3 on the M1 in one month

#346

Post by talldayo »

nox101 wrote: post #270
talldayo wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There will be a small bit of irony if the gaming experience on Asahi ends up easier and more straightforward than MacOS. Really just drives home how big of a mistake it was ignoring Vulkan for the past decade on Apple's behalf, but lord knows they won't admit that until it's too late.

Vulkan is the arguably worst of the modern GPU APIs. It's not all that portable since you have to check for sooo many differences in architecture. It requires the most amount of manual synchronization. It lacks a higher-level shading language (you generally have to pick a library that implements some other higher level language and let it generate SPIR-V for you and pray it works portably). Except for projects like t…

> It's not all that portable since you have to check for sooo many differences in architecture.

And... Metal is better in this regard? I'd take SPIR-V generation for two target architectures over a complete render overhaul any day of the week.

> Metal is arguably the best of the 3 APIs

Then what harm is there in offering Vulkan alongside it?

If Metal is the obviously superior choice, there should be no problem doing the same thing Microsoft does by allowing developers to use both. Why is Apple afraid of letting their APIs compete?

Re: Vulkan1.3 on the M1 in one month

#347

Post by talldayo »

pjmlp wrote: post #341
talldayo wrote: post #326

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My brother in Christ, OpenGL ES is officially depreciated on all Apple platforms. It is not "more stable, with less buggy drivers", I've used it.

I thought we are talking about Android, and which APIs makes business sense, when AAA actually want to get paid, instead of having to pay back store returns.

I thought we were talking about capable APIs for creating enjoyable experiences, not barebones rendering frameworks for building flashier online casinos. My mistake.

Re: Vulkan1.3 on the M1 in one month

#348

Post by troupo »

talldayo wrote: post #330
troupo wrote: post #308

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When they made Lightning USB didn't even have an agreed-upon charging standard. Much less all the other requirements Apple had for the cable. Do not try and pretend that USB was any good when Lightning was announced. And even USB-C is a mess of conflicting and confusing optional specifications.

> And even USB-C is a mess of conflicting and confusing optional specifications. Certainly one that Apple didn't struggle to navigate, considering they designed Thunderbolt around the specification.

As I understand, original Thunderbolt was mostly Intel's work, and Apple figured out how to have it with the mini-DP connector.

Later Thunderbolt is Intel doing the right thing: they took many of the features that USB-C lists as optional, and made them required for Thunderbolt specification. That's why the first M1 Macbook was Thunderbolt-capable/enabled, not fully Thunderbolt certified

Re: Vulkan1.3 on the M1 in one month

#349

Post by Aerbil313 »

AltruisticGapHN wrote: post #74
littlecranky67 wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> would impact Apple's dream of landing AAA games on Apple Silicon Apple's dream is not to have AAA games land on Apple Silicon - they can do this with Proton-like layer, like they did with GPTK. Apple's wet dream is to have AAA games land in the Apple App Store - not on Steam or Epic Game store. That is why the GPTK effort is only have assed (and the license prevents Valve integrating it into steam directly).

I don't get it. They already make a ton of money on mobile games - why not embrace Steam and Proton on their platform? What's the money in AAA games on their platform? edit: this is to say if they had "wet dreams" about selling AAA games on Mac, we'd have seen the tides moving a long time ago.

Apple wants to own the entire computing stack for the average Joe, for legitimate integration reasons and illegitimate monopolistic market capture reasons.

Re: Vulkan1.3 on the M1 in one month

#350

Post by troupo »

talldayo wrote: post #325
troupo wrote: post #306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You want to make a AAA game, you probably don't go Metal if you want enough market coverage to recoup your costs Likewise you don't care about Vulkan. You care about DirectX and whatever Playstation has

> You care about DirectX ...exactly. Which is why, unless you're given a license to re-impliment DirectX, it makes so much more sense to use Vulkan and it's DX9 through DX12 translation layer. What am I missing here?

You're missing that people don't care about Vulkan at all: https://carette.xyz/posts/state_of_vulkan_2024/

And the translation layer exists largely due to Valve business decisions, not because "community came together or something". This glorious amazing support didn't even really exist until 2018 (when it was launched with official support of 27 games)

1. Apple has never truly cared about gaming on the Mac

2. iOS only supports Metal, and Metal serves Apple extremely well

3. Apple's dropping of 32-bit apps and switching to M* chips has hurt gaming on Macs much more than any perceived harm from not supporting Vulkan.

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