Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem • Hacker News Board

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#521

Post by blackhawkC17 » Thu, Jun 06, 2024, 5:37 PM UTC

TotalCrackpot wrote: post #434

s1artibartfast wrote: post #406

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Refusing to pay for a place to live is simply theft and entitlement. They expect people to build and maintain homes for them while doing nothing in return. If you abolish property rights, your two options are state slavery or anarchy where the strong take whatever they can. These misguided ideologies can only live parasitic ally on the fringe of a otherwise functional society. If they got their way, the society would…

For most of our history humans did not have to pay for a piece of land to put up some yurt or hut and live there. How is the current system not strong taking whatever they can? Private property is just a legitimized theft, because it leaves some people without access to land or natural resources that is required for survival. It's not true that without private property you get state slavery or a strongman situation,…

Chiapas is the poorest and most backward state in Mexico [1]. There's nothing worth emulating in it.

1- https://growthlab.hks.harvard.edu/publications/why-chiapas-p...

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#522

Post by petsfed » Thu, Jun 06, 2024, 5:37 PM UTC

Wytwwww wrote: post #438

diggan wrote: post #407

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I had a friend who bought a house that needed a lot of work. Before he could get started on the remodel, someone broke in to the empty house, changed the locks, and started occupying it. Was this the person's primary residence that they were planning to live in? Or a property that they intended to flip or rent out? Makes a big difference in how the courts would see it. > Even here on HN there are comments trying to…

> Or a property that they intended to flip or rent out? Makes a big difference in how the courts would see it. Are you implying that there is something morally wrong about purchasing a rundown (apparently barely liveable) property, renovating it and selling or renting it? How do you expect the supply of housing to increase (and prices to go down in turn) if you disincentive such behaviour? Seems rather absurd...

By incentivizing people renovating, then living in, the rundown house they bought, instead of seeing that option as equally valuable as just selling/renting the house? Its one thing to produce more housing, its another to somehow magically produce more housing in such a way that does not devalue the other resources. Step 1 is to disincentivize speculative/rent-seeking home purchases.

Its been said a couple times in sibling comments, but the problem comes down to the fact that people are buying houses as investments, and not as houses.

In most of Europe, the US and Canada, the cost of home ownership grossly exceeds the median income, to the extent that lending is almost always necessary. Thus owning a second home is always the realm of the wealthy, even if they are still ultimately laborers. Buying that second home is often the first step from the labor class to the capitol-holding class.

Its frustrating that the housing crisis is often described in terms of Marxist dialectic, but the crisis often feels lab-grown to illustrate the flaws of (literal) rent-seeking behavior by the capitol-holding class.

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#523

Post by lottin » Thu, Jun 06, 2024, 5:39 PM UTC

em500 wrote: post #159

lottin wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Absolute nonsense. Why would a "speculator" refuse to rent out their property and make a profit out of it?

Many countries especially in continental Europe have strong pro-tenant rights. Often the rent contract cannot be terminated by the landlord, only by the tenant, which can make it more profitable to leave property empty vs renting it out. (When a tenant-occupied property is sold, the new owner in some countries cannot terminate an existing rent contract, which makes the property less valuable on the market vs empty pr…

Yes, I understand that selling a rented property can be less profitable than selling a property without a rent contract. But holding on to a property that generates no income is even less profitable.

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#524

Post by horns4lyfe » Thu, Jun 06, 2024, 5:39 PM UTC

diggan wrote: post #452

next_xibalba wrote: post #428

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, let's play it out. A squatter steals an owner's property while they're away on a Summer-long vacation. Later, the squatter spends some temporary time away from the property. During this time, another squatter comes along and steals the property from them. And so on. How does this not just lead to an unending string of lawlessness. Further, why would anyone invest in building and maintaining housing when their p…

> A squatter steals an owner's property while they're away on a Summer-long vacation Realistically, if this would happen in real life (which isn't very common, compared to proper "occupations", which this is not), the police would kick them out quickly, as it's the owner's primary resident. No one is arguing for squatters right for other's primary residence. The division comes when you start talking about properties…

There’s someone in this thread arguing exactly for squatters right for another’s primary residence, barring their ability to organize some kind self defense. Didn’t sound great

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#525

Post by AlbertoGP » Thu, Jun 06, 2024, 5:40 PM UTC

hgomersall wrote: post #422

gsky wrote: post #391

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Law abiding citizens are the suckers it seems everywhere. It's easy to be nobel and generous when you are not the one being taken advantage of. Regardless of who benefits from Lawlessness, it always ends up destroying the society

Said every tyrant ever.

Isn’t a tyrant someone that is above the law, not subject to the rule of law like other citizens?

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#526

Post by TotalCrackpot » Thu, Jun 06, 2024, 5:40 PM UTC

blackhawkC17 wrote: post #521

TotalCrackpot wrote: post #434

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For most of our history humans did not have to pay for a piece of land to put up some yurt or hut and live there. How is the current system not strong taking whatever they can? Private property is just a legitimized theft, because it leaves some people without access to land or natural resources that is required for survival. It's not true that without private property you get state slavery or a strongman situation,…

Chiapas is the poorest and most backward state in Mexico [1]. There's nothing worth emulating in it. 1- https://growthlab.hks.harvard.edu/publications/why-chiapas-p...

Yeah, Zapatistas have much higher standard of living than other people that live in Chiapas, which is impressive. You have to always consider local conditions and if you can see that certain ideas help some part of some territory develop better then alternatives then it's a strong argument for them. Especially considering that rebels are fighting against colonially motivated genocide.

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#527

Post by Manuel_D » Thu, Jun 06, 2024, 5:40 PM UTC

zrn900 wrote: post #490

Manuel_D wrote: post #465

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And what will the buyers do with the apartments? Rent them? Well, then they'll either have to spend money on security or price the risk of okupas into the rent. In either case rent goes up. This is as nonsensical as the proposals in San Francisco to prohibit the construction of apartments to try and reduce rent. Dissuading people from renting out apartments reduces the supply apartments. There is zero possibility thi…

> And what will the buyers do with the apartments? Rent them? Yes. > This is as nonsensical as the proposals Its not nonsensical. Its what is happening. Use it or lose it. Works. Find a good tenant, rent it for decades - like how it is supposed to be.

Again, the comment you responded to explains how this makes it more risky and less profitable to rent out apartments. It's dissuading people from renting:

> you're also making it more risky and thus less profitable to buy and rent out apartments

When something becomes riskier, fewer people do it unless there's some other incentive.

A vacancy tax could incentivize renting, buy enabling squatters does nothing but making rentals more risky. The only thing that can solve a shortage is increased supply or reduced demand. The latter is not feasible since people need housing. The former requires that land owners take the risk on renting out apartments, and anything that increases the risk means less people will do it.

> Find a good tenant

That's easier said than done. The better way to convince prospective renters to rent out their property is to make it easier to kick out bad tenants. If evictions are backlogged, then a landlord risks being stuck with a non paying tenant for a long time.

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#528

Post by blackhawkC17 » Thu, Jun 06, 2024, 5:42 PM UTC

TotalCrackpot wrote: post #491

Wytwwww wrote: post #482

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, so basically you want the system we currently have?

No, I want for example to abolish private property of land and natural resources.

Fortunately, most citizens are not economically illiterate enough to support this ideology. Private ownership of land and natural resources is the foundation of 21st-Century economic prosperity.

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#529

Post by s1artibartfast » Thu, Jun 06, 2024, 5:42 PM UTC

TotalCrackpot wrote: post #505

s1artibartfast wrote: post #495

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is an ahistorical perspective. For most of human history, you could be killed for putting a yurt or hut in someone else's land. Even chimps will kill others for infringing on territory. There were breif periods where humans entered virgin land, but these people migrated because other land and resources were spoken for. >Private property is just a legitimized theft, because it leaves some people without access to…

> That is an ahistorical perspective. For most of human history, you could be killed for putting a yurt or hut in someone else's land. Even chimps will kill others for infringing on territory. I don't agree with you, there are books such as The Dawn of Everything: A New History of Humanity that counter your rhetoric. Private property norms did not exist for most of human history. > Even chimps will kill others for in…

Bonobos are not pacifist. There is less violence within the troop, but they will still kill and maim, especially in the case of territorial disputes.

Groups of humans have always organized for Mutual Aid, but it has never been unilateral or not subject to the approval of the group.

Norms around private property are different across time and depend on the level of abundance. At no point could a strange human come and take your possessions huts, or food without permission.

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#530

Post by diggan » Thu, Jun 06, 2024, 5:46 PM UTC

horns4lyfe wrote: post #524

diggan wrote: post #452

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A squatter steals an owner's property while they're away on a Summer-long vacation Realistically, if this would happen in real life (which isn't very common, compared to proper "occupations", which this is not), the police would kick them out quickly, as it's the owner's primary resident. No one is arguing for squatters right for other's primary residence. The division comes when you start talking about properties…

There’s someone in this thread arguing exactly for squatters right for another’s primary residence, barring their ability to organize some kind self defense. Didn’t sound great

As always, there are extremists on both sides, that's no lie.

Generally, most people aren't so extreme as to say private ownership shouldn't exist at all. At least from most of the people I interact with here in Barcelona.

Besides what people think is right/wrong, the police does help you (quickly) to throw out people that try to invade your residence that you actively live in.