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Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

idealista.com

451–460 of 930 posts

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#451

"The rise of okupation"... but they make no references to data. Here is the data (in Spanish) [1]. The difference between trespassing (that somebody enters in the house you live) and usurpation (the house is yours but is not where you live) is very important. Both problems are way less prevalent than what appears on the media (see [1]), but trespassing is waaay lower (and as the owner you have better mechanisms to re…

> However, there is a huge propaganda campaign here in Spain, where TV shows talk constantly about trespassing

Yes, the right-wing channels have been screaming about it for 1-2 years now. Interestingly, their tirade started about the time the US investment funds started entering the Spanish 'real estate market' and buying up entire neighborhoods.

https://www.iberian.property/news/residential/blackrock-busc....

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#452

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Well, let's play it out. A squatter steals an owner's property while they're away on a Summer-long vacation. Later, the squatter spends some temporary time away from the property. During this time, another squatter comes along and steals the property from them. And so on. How does this not just lead to an unending string of lawlessness. Further, why would anyone invest in building and maintaining housing when their p…

> A squatter steals an owner's property while they're away on a Summer-long vacation

Realistically, if this would happen in real life (which isn't very common, compared to proper "occupations", which this is not), the police would kick them out quickly, as it's the owner's primary resident.

No one is arguing for squatters right for other's primary residence. The division comes when you start talking about properties that are bought/owned for the sole purpose of speculation.

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#453
post #307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Squatting is a problem, period. Doesn’t matter if the house is empty or not.

Homelessness is a problem, even having to pay rent to another person to have a place to live is a problem. Squatting is just a strategy to fight an inherently oppressive private property norm.

> even having to pay rent to another

I'm curious how would you expect housing to stock to grow or even stay stable if nobody had to pay rent?

Would all housing be used owned by the state and assigned to individuals based on certain criteria (with huge amounts of inefficiency and corruption that such a system creates)?

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#454

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If a property is fully decorated (photos of my family, toothbrush I've used, etc), is that still considered empty? If the answer is "yes", then based on your post, the answer to my question of how long can I take a vacation for, is "decades". But if that is indeed considered empty, then what if in addition to that, every month I email someone my travel expenses and tell them to print them and to put them in some draw…

It's funny because most of your argument assumes setting some kind of threshold would be a problem, as if it was not exactly how fiscal rules worked already. For instance, you are paying income taxes in your “country of residence” and not in your country of vacations (unless you are an American citizen living abroad, in which case you pay it to both your country of residence and to the US), and there is a threshold t…

> It's funny because most of your argument assumes setting some kind of threshold would be a problem, as if it was not exactly how fiscal rules worked already.

But it is the crux of the problem.

When establishing things like "country of residence" (or, here in the US, to which state(s) you owe taxes), the second order effects aren't the same. It's the difference between "you owe a few extra percent of your income for one year" versus "you lose your home permanently".

As public policy, it is important not to expropriate someone's home simply because they had to be away for extenuating life circumstances like caring for an ailing relative for a few months. Because otherwise, you will disincentivize that behavior (and create a greater burden for the state).

It's easy for you to come back with "Oh, well the competent bureaucrats in my government will simply write an exception for those who leave for a few months of eldercare because that is clearly a legitimate reason to leave your house vacant for a few months." But that is just a bandaid on an artery which creates an explosion of exceptions and exceptions to the exceptions.

What happens if I need to care for my grandmother, and then something else comes up? Do I get to have two exemptions to expropriation? Can they be consecutive? What sort of documentation do I need? What if the exemption allows n days, but I need n+3? What if I had planned an m-1 days vacation (for the m vacation days exception) right before I need n days to care for my grandmother?

Very quickly you will have 10,000 pages of rules that nobody understands. And you will get perverse outcomes when someone hits an edge case that wasn't quite accounted for.

Or maybe you will say "put the case in front of a judge and let them exercise discretion". But now we have the problem that it is no longer really rule of law, and people with connections will always get exceptions while people without don't. So that increases the class divide because people with connections are usually rich, and middle-class people usually don't have connections.

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#455
post #350

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Buying a house and purposefully leaving it empty is immoral, sqatting or not.

This is absurd. Is your car sitting in your driveway right now? Someone else could be driving it, it's immoral that you don't leave the keys sitting on the roof. Is your bed or couch empty right now? Someone else could be sleeping there right now. Do you have money in your checking account? Someone else could be buying the things they need with that money, you should put the cash outside for them to take. A house sit…

To take this further, everyone here has a computer. Obviously you don't use 100% of the cycles all the time, so it is immoral if you do not install a program that allows anyone else to use your unused cycles.

Yes there are power costs with 100% usage vs idle time but there are also cost of upkeep on a house.

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#456

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you misunderstood what the above commenter meant when they wrote that risk of squatters makes it "less profitable to buy and rent out apartments". Because of the additional risks of squatters, landowner will either have to take additional security measures (and make up the costs with higher rent) or accept the risk of squatters (and make up that risk with higher rent). In either case, the rent getsor expensiv…

No, I got it. I just think that would mainly mean investors exit the market. If it is less profitable, they either further raise the prices or they get out of the market; the ratio of those two options depends on price elasticity. And prices don't have a lot of room to grow further in my opinion... unless of course the wages grow quickly (and minimum wage indeed has done it in the last 5 years). But then the country…

> No, I got it. I just think that would mainly mean investors exit the market.

Great. They should get the hell out asap.

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#457

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Well, let's play it out. A squatter steals an owner's property while they're away on a Summer-long vacation. Later, the squatter spends some temporary time away from the property. During this time, another squatter comes along and steals the property from them. And so on. How does this not just lead to an unending string of lawlessness. Further, why would anyone invest in building and maintaining housing when their p…

The criterion of abandonment of private property I think should differ based on the local customs and on the type of private property, so for houses for example maybe it should be a year or 2 of you not living there before your house is considered abandoned and someone can live there. For for example mines I think they should be considered abandoned and ready for someone else to use much faster.

The main problem of private property is that it leaves some people without access to a place to live or means to subsist on, so they either have to die of hunger or agree to get exploited. This makes this concept oppressive.

> Your turn. How is pointing out that people have been seduced by a worldview that is neither fact based nor logical "neo-fascist".

I explained above why is such a worldview logical, if you have some issues please answer. On the other hand utilizing such dehumanizing rhetoric like "infection by a mind virus" is not acceptable and is typical of people aligned politically with far-right, such as Elon Musk, who is among the most popular users of this term.

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#458
I see a lot of people here claiming that the okupas only affect landlords and banks. Here for example is an article in Spanish that tells the account of an 82-year old pensioner who's house was taken from him (occupied) while he was out visiting a friend in hospital.

https://www.antena3.com/noticias/sociedad/vuelve-hospital-vi...

I myself have also heard from friends in various cities in Spain of neighbour's apartments being taken also. I'm even aware of some apartments even in my small city that have been occupied.

The fact of the matter is that these lax laws harm many ordinary people. This cannot be argued.

There are a few factors causing the housing crisis but I will not comment more on this as to not go off-topic further.

However I don't think the laws allowing okupas help the housing problem at all and are in fact dangerous and just cause more harm to ordinary, hard-working people. They need to be changed.

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#459
post #307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Squatting is a problem, period. Doesn’t matter if the house is empty or not.

Unoccupied (for x or more months) second homes should be rented out, otherwise squatted in or burned to the ground, period. It doesn't matter if you disagree, Might Makes Right. Be careful: Meme Magic works in both directions, and it is often difficult to detect its presence.

> burned to the ground

Which helps who exactly? Even squatting means that those houses will no longer be maintained and fall apart sooner or later which is how you end up having even more expensive housing long-term because of lower supply.

Higher taxation for uninhabited housing seems like an infinitely more sensible option...

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#460

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok, but first: is it financially risky right now to own properties? No, based on the data we have. Second: can renters be hurt even more? Are landlords the most vulnerable people right now? The situation is pretty awful right now, while at the same time there are people whose sole contribution to society is "owning flats". And I agree on increasing property taxes (any progressive taxes over capital would do).

I think these are understandable and well intended questions! But they also makes it seem like you're not very familiar with standard economic analysis. I would encourage you to read The Rent is Too Damn High by Yglesias which is by an american (leftist) who I think has a much better set of ideas for improving the lives of renters than "occupation friendly" housing regulations and other "zero sum" ideas. And yes, buy…

The difference is that those occupation friendly laws work and force real estate owners to actually rent out their properties rather than let them sit empty to appreciate value. Whereas the ideas of a person that only exist in a book are just ideas that exist in a book.
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