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Vulkan1.3 on the M1 in one month

rosenzweig.io

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Re: Vulkan1.3 on the M1 in one month

#151

Post by speedgoose »

Osiris wrote: post #118
delta_p_delta_x wrote: post #86

Hacker News regularly makes me feel very stupid, and none more so than blog posts by Alyssa Rosenzweig. I couldn't even write an engine that used Vulkan in six months, nor a software rasteriser; meanwhile, Alyssa wrote an entire compliant driver on a non-native operating system running on locked-down hardware in one month flat. What am I doing with my life? EDIT: I point this out because I'd eventually like to write…

I often also feel imposter syndrome. But it's also good to realize that some people are just better at things than others, others have more free time, more motivation, more experience, etc. Don't let other people's success bring you down. Of course I've been dealing with imposter syndrome my whole life because my older brother is a genius and it's taken me my whole 44 years of life to try not to compare myself to him…

Some people are simply better in most aspects. And it is fine.

Re: Vulkan1.3 on the M1 in one month

#152

Post by [deleted] »

troupo wrote: post #140
talldayo wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There will be a small bit of irony if the gaming experience on Asahi ends up easier and more straightforward than MacOS. Really just drives home how big of a mistake it was ignoring Vulkan for the past decade on Apple's behalf, but lord knows they won't admit that until it's too late.

> Really just drives home how big of a mistake it was ignoring Vulkan for the past decade on Apple's behalf, but lord knows they won't admit that until it's too late. People who keep saying this have surprisingly short/bad memories. And very little idea of the state of the industry. - Apple already shipped Metal version 1 a full year before Vulkan was even an idea. iPhone, one of the largest casual gaming platforms i…

[deleted]

Re: Vulkan1.3 on the M1 in one month

#153

Post by fngjdflmdflg »

philistine wrote: post #144
fngjdflmdflg wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>if they used Vulkan, it would mean they wouldn't have to debug on a Mac.[...] Neither should or would be blindly trusting that things are portable I didn't mean this, just that you can actually run whatever shaders you compile rather than needing a Mac just to see your output. My point was that you would get "a smoother developer experience," which is true. > Vulkan/DX on AMD/NVIDIA also perform differently enough t…

Ultimately, the whole discussion surrounding technologies is discussing the consequences of the problems, not the problem itself. The problem is that Apple, since it decided it was going to make its own GPUs for all its devices, deemed it necessary to simplify their support. Apple's Metal API is custom-made to the silicon Apple is making, and Apple keeps Metal development strictly focused on their hardware. Of course…

>Apple's Metal API is custom-made to the silicon Apple is making

Do you have any examples of this? My guess is that the API, being higher level than vk/dx, is designed for ease of use by developers, not to expose hardware level details. In fact Vulkan would be more suitable for that as it is lower level.

>the strength of iOS clearly helped them decide to move iOS game developers to the Mac

What do you mean by this? Are there a lot of mobile game studios publishing on MacOS now? (this is a legitimate question)

>rather than try to court the so-called AAA companies who are stuck in an x86, Windows+console, heat up the wazoo world.

Why is that? The only actual barrier there is x86. But Vulkan is not related to x86 anyway. It is only related inasmuchas they are both not supported by Apple. But this discussion is itslef about if Apple should support Vulkan, so the reasoning here seems circular. Also, if Apple doesn't like x86 games that is fine because they don't support x86. So it's not like they are not support Vulkan because they think developers will start distributing x86 games to their customers because that's impossible.

>heat up the wazoo

I mean, it will use the same about of energy as any other demanding application like Blender or video editing. And you can always lower the graphical settings to make it consume less power. Similarly mobile game developers would likely increase the graphical settings for a mobile game that they port to MacOS.

Re: Vulkan1.3 on the M1 in one month

#154

Post by internet101010 »

__madness wrote: post #131
delta_p_delta_x wrote: post #86

Hacker News regularly makes me feel very stupid, and none more so than blog posts by Alyssa Rosenzweig. I couldn't even write an engine that used Vulkan in six months, nor a software rasteriser; meanwhile, Alyssa wrote an entire compliant driver on a non-native operating system running on locked-down hardware in one month flat. What am I doing with my life? EDIT: I point this out because I'd eventually like to write…

I sometimes feel like her success is driving me into madness, I feel like Salieri looking at Mozart when I look at her work. Here is the Alyssa timeline: * She started programming at ~3 with MIT Scratch. Her Father introduced it to her, he works at Intel and is a very successful person. * I think around age 11-12 she knew C very well, worked on some low level networking stuff for games, she wanted to make an MMO. * A…

It's like being born a Gracie and starting jiu jitsu before you can walk. Of course you are going to be proficient in that field at a young age due to being taught by an expert at a time when the mind is most malleable.

Re: Vulkan1.3 on the M1 in one month

#155

Post by [deleted] »

delta_p_delta_x wrote: post #86

Hacker News regularly makes me feel very stupid, and none more so than blog posts by Alyssa Rosenzweig. I couldn't even write an engine that used Vulkan in six months, nor a software rasteriser; meanwhile, Alyssa wrote an entire compliant driver on a non-native operating system running on locked-down hardware in one month flat. What am I doing with my life? EDIT: I point this out because I'd eventually like to write…

[deleted]

Re: Vulkan1.3 on the M1 in one month

#156

Post by talldayo »

philistine wrote: post #147
eptcyka wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They were the (one of the) first ones to usb-c on laptops. I don’t think they were ever planning to do usb-c on the iPhone, they had no reason to be this late.

Apple did USB-C on the iPad before the Europeans forced them to do USB-C at all. They could have kept developing Lighting, it supported USB-3 speeds for one device (the first iPad Pro), but they instead chose to rally around the common standard. USB-C on phones was a certainty, it was clear to everyone. The problem is not that Apple didn't want to standardize, it's that they didn't want to be forced. In the history o…

Speaking of, can you buy a Magic Trackpad that uses USB-C yet? I've got a Magic Trackpad 2 that requires this annoying special cable no one uses and it ends up making me buy trashy gas-station connectors to feed it power.

Maybe we're still waiting for that one to make "sense for it's customers when the device was released". Good grief.

Re: Vulkan1.3 on the M1 in one month

#157

Post by jakogut »

talldayo wrote: post #4
dagmx wrote: post #2

Very impressive work, and a great testament to the value of shared, iterative and open components. I'll be curious how long it takes Proton to be ported, though I suspect even with an optimal Vk implementation, many games will run terribly due to the difference in GPU architecture + arm translation overhead + proton itself (however negligible). Still, I remain optimistic that more games will target unified memory and…

There will be a small bit of irony if the gaming experience on Asahi ends up easier and more straightforward than MacOS. Really just drives home how big of a mistake it was ignoring Vulkan for the past decade on Apple's behalf, but lord knows they won't admit that until it's too late.

Linux market share is considerably ahead of macOS according to the Steam hardware survey. Just this past month, Linux is sitting at 2.32% compared to macOS at 1.47%.

Re: Vulkan1.3 on the M1 in one month

#158

Post by ThatPlayer »

philistine wrote: post #147
eptcyka wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They were the (one of the) first ones to usb-c on laptops. I don’t think they were ever planning to do usb-c on the iPhone, they had no reason to be this late.

Apple did USB-C on the iPad before the Europeans forced them to do USB-C at all. They could have kept developing Lighting, it supported USB-3 speeds for one device (the first iPad Pro), but they instead chose to rally around the common standard. USB-C on phones was a certainty, it was clear to everyone. The problem is not that Apple didn't want to standardize, it's that they didn't want to be forced. In the history o…

> it supported USB-3 speeds for one device (the first iPad Pro)

I'm always unsure about this because it only supported USB 3 host for one specific accessory, the camera adapter. I question whether that implementation was just a hack or something that could've scaled to proper USB client support and others.

There was never a USB 3 Lightning to USB-A or USB-C cable.

Re: Vulkan1.3 on the M1 in one month

#159

Post by talldayo »

troupo wrote: post #143
burnte wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Really just drives home how big of a mistake it was ignoring Vulkan for the past decade on Apple's behalf, but lord knows they won't admit that until it's too late. They'll never admit it. They only caved on USB-C because they were legally required to. They won't cave on this, or NVidia support, or putting the charge port on the side of the mouse and not the belly, etc.

> They'll never admit it. Admit what? That they had their own API before anyone even thought about Vulkan? That they have Metal running on one of the most popular platforms in the world (iOS)? That other major platforms don't support Vulkan (Xbox, Playstation; Windows supports DX and defers Vulkan support to GPU vendors)?

Admit that Metal isn't enough.

People were more willing to write a DirectX translation framework for Vulkan than Mac users were willing to write one for Metal. And now with Game Porting Toolkit we basically have confirmation that nothing has been stopping Mac users from playing DirectX games with DXVK besides... working Vulkan drivers.

So it would be nice to see Apple's explanation for being so insular. Especially when their "solution" is repackaged and relicensed free software that we've all been using for years.

Re: Vulkan1.3 on the M1 in one month

#160

Post by talldayo »

philistine wrote: post #148
troupo wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you think Vulkan support for games is insignificant, look at Metal support. Metal is supported on iOS. You know, one of the largest gaming platforms in the world.

THE largest gaming platform in the world. Users, sales, number of games, hours played. I challenge you to find one metric where the iPhone isn't number one.

> I challenge you to find one metric where the iPhone isn't number one.

Enjoyable gaming experiences?

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