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Vulkan1.3 on the M1 in one month

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Re: Vulkan1.3 on the M1 in one month

#141

Post by bitwize »

tomovo wrote: post #109
bitwize wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I had about 50GB free on my (1 TB M1 Max) machine at the time of the update, and the App Store told me I didn't have enough free space to update. I balked and looked at the update description, which was just "Various minor bug fixes." The update size was...75 GB. They expect me to re-download the entire game for various minor bug fixes. It is an unfortunate truth that one must now bear in mind, that games are for a…

Steam updates are often in the order of kilobytes. Clearly it can be done.

It can be done, and Valve are old-school gamedev bros who clearly are interested in making it happen for games on their platform. But not every shop is like that, and in particular I wince when I contemplate updating a PS4 game...

Re: Vulkan1.3 on the M1 in one month

#142

Post by troupo »

jeroenhd wrote: post #84
bilbo0s wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You may have a good point with the opengl thing. But the number of games that run on Vulkan is so vanishingly small that we can't credibly say that not having a Vulkan driver holds Apple back on gaming. I'd bet any money that the number of games that work on Metal is wayyyy higher than the minuscule number of games that run on Vulkan. Which should tell you how few Vulkan games there are.

The amount of games that work with Vulkan may be very small, but at least they have a chance of working. The de facto standard API for games on computers, DirectX, will never receive a port. If you think Vulkan support for games is insignificant, look at Metal support. I think Vulkan makes a lot of sense for macOS, actually; the Nintendo Switch, to which tons of games have been ported already, uses the ARM+Vulkan des…

> If you think Vulkan support for games is insignificant, look at Metal support.

Metal is supported on iOS. You know, one of the largest gaming platforms in the world.

Re: Vulkan1.3 on the M1 in one month

#143

Post by troupo »

burnte wrote: post #78
talldayo wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There will be a small bit of irony if the gaming experience on Asahi ends up easier and more straightforward than MacOS. Really just drives home how big of a mistake it was ignoring Vulkan for the past decade on Apple's behalf, but lord knows they won't admit that until it's too late.

> Really just drives home how big of a mistake it was ignoring Vulkan for the past decade on Apple's behalf, but lord knows they won't admit that until it's too late. They'll never admit it. They only caved on USB-C because they were legally required to. They won't cave on this, or NVidia support, or putting the charge port on the side of the mouse and not the belly, etc.

> They'll never admit it.

Admit what? That they had their own API before anyone even thought about Vulkan? That they have Metal running on one of the most popular platforms in the world (iOS)? That other major platforms don't support Vulkan (Xbox, Playstation; Windows supports DX and defers Vulkan support to GPU vendors)?

Re: Vulkan1.3 on the M1 in one month

#144

Post by philistine »

fngjdflmdflg wrote: post #117
dagmx wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many engines support Metal, in addition to the plethora of console specific APIs. Saying DX11/12 works on Xbox is glossing over that that it's not actually the same DX12 that works on desktop. You then say that if they used Vulkan, it would mean they wouldn't have to debug on a Mac. This is overly optimistic. Even in the OpenGL days, you'd have to test on all platforms because there's so many variances. In general, t…

>if they used Vulkan, it would mean they wouldn't have to debug on a Mac.[...] Neither should or would be blindly trusting that things are portable I didn't mean this, just that you can actually run whatever shaders you compile rather than needing a Mac just to see your output. My point was that you would get "a smoother developer experience," which is true. > Vulkan/DX on AMD/NVIDIA also perform differently enough t…

Ultimately, the whole discussion surrounding technologies is discussing the consequences of the problems, not the problem itself.

The problem is that Apple, since it decided it was going to make its own GPUs for all its devices, deemed it necessary to simplify their support. Apple's Metal API is custom-made to the silicon Apple is making, and Apple keeps Metal development strictly focused on their hardware. Of course they could have chosen to support more APIs, but the strength of iOS clearly helped them decide to move iOS game developers to the Mac, rather than try to court the so-called AAA companies who are stuck in an x86, Windows+console, heat up the wazoo world. That whole world is difficult to reconcile with Apple's priorities.

Re: Vulkan1.3 on the M1 in one month

#145

Post by arresin »

__madness wrote: post #131
delta_p_delta_x wrote: post #86

Hacker News regularly makes me feel very stupid, and none more so than blog posts by Alyssa Rosenzweig. I couldn't even write an engine that used Vulkan in six months, nor a software rasteriser; meanwhile, Alyssa wrote an entire compliant driver on a non-native operating system running on locked-down hardware in one month flat. What am I doing with my life? EDIT: I point this out because I'd eventually like to write…

I sometimes feel like her success is driving me into madness, I feel like Salieri looking at Mozart when I look at her work. Here is the Alyssa timeline: * She started programming at ~3 with MIT Scratch. Her Father introduced it to her, he works at Intel and is a very successful person. * I think around age 11-12 she knew C very well, worked on some low level networking stuff for games, she wanted to make an MMO. * A…

It is brutal. Especially when you read about this: https://chesswizards.com/buzz/Chess-biography-the-Polgar-sis....

And think if only I had a parent like this.

Re: Vulkan1.3 on the M1 in one month

#146

Post by talldayo »

robertlagrant wrote: post #133
tracker1 wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's absolutely fair to count games that are able to run in Linux with Proton via DXVK + Vulcan. Since it's well established and relatively popular thanks to Valve's efforts with the Steam Deck and Proton. Given those efforts, if Apple/Mac had support for Vulkan, Valve would probably make it all just as available on Mac as they do on Linux for Proton.

Well - they might. I don't think Valve would hate being the gaming gateway for Mac as well as for PC, but they have great Linux support because of the Steam Deck.

If I'm not mistaken, supporting MacOS with Proton was the implicit plan before Apple disabled 32-bit support in Catalina. Several people seem to have gotten early builds to compile on Mac with usable performance: https://github.com/ValveSoftware/Proton/issues/1344

Re: Vulkan1.3 on the M1 in one month

#147

Post by philistine »

eptcyka wrote: post #92
mantas wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody required USB-C charging for laptops and iPads. It would have happened on iPhones eventually too.

They were the (one of the) first ones to usb-c on laptops. I don’t think they were ever planning to do usb-c on the iPhone, they had no reason to be this late.

Apple did USB-C on the iPad before the Europeans forced them to do USB-C at all. They could have kept developing Lighting, it supported USB-3 speeds for one device (the first iPad Pro), but they instead chose to rally around the common standard. USB-C on phones was a certainty, it was clear to everyone. The problem is not that Apple didn't want to standardize, it's that they didn't want to be forced.

In the history of technology, Apple has chosen to switch connectors countless times. Every single time people complain, and every time Apple has the same exact reason for choosing a specific connector: its the one that makes sense for its customers when the device is released.

Re: Vulkan1.3 on the M1 in one month

#148

Post by philistine »

troupo wrote: post #142
jeroenhd wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The amount of games that work with Vulkan may be very small, but at least they have a chance of working. The de facto standard API for games on computers, DirectX, will never receive a port. If you think Vulkan support for games is insignificant, look at Metal support. I think Vulkan makes a lot of sense for macOS, actually; the Nintendo Switch, to which tons of games have been ported already, uses the ARM+Vulkan des…

> If you think Vulkan support for games is insignificant, look at Metal support. Metal is supported on iOS. You know, one of the largest gaming platforms in the world.

THE largest gaming platform in the world. Users, sales, number of games, hours played.

I challenge you to find one metric where the iPhone isn't number one.

Re: Vulkan1.3 on the M1 in one month

#149

Post by kbolino »

rowanG077 wrote: post #138
kbolino wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No single 3D API is capable of supporting all 3 of those platforms. However, if those are the only 3 you're concerned with, then Direct3D gets you farther (Windows+Xbox) than Vulkan (Windows only). You're still going to have to write/use something different for PlayStation (which has its own custom API). The two major platforms that favor Vulkan are Android and Switch, but the former is in the "mobile" category rathe…

AAA gaming is THE driving factor for getting Vulkan on Asahi. There really are only a tiny subset of games that require a kernel anti cheat. Let alone the wealth of single player games.

I'd love to hear about all these DRM-free single-player AAA games. If you're talking about older games, then maybe we're just talking past each other; I assumed we were talking about recent AAA games.

Re: Vulkan1.3 on the M1 in one month

#150

Post by rowanG077 »

dagmx wrote: post #38
talldayo wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean I owned a Mac back then, I remember pretty fondly that pre-Catalina MacOS was a fairly well-targeted platform. OpenGL was working for them; you could play first-person shooters, online games with fancy graphics, the kit and kaboodle. Things weren't perfect , but there was a lot of functional cross-platform software back when Apple commit to maintaining common APIs. You cannot deny that an entire ecosystem of s…

Go back and see how many of those games were running Cider though. The switch to kill 32-bit games killed more games than the deprecation of OpenGL did. The number of games that targeted OpenGL was ALSO shockingly low. This is something that OSS fans do not want to reconcile: Open source graphics APIs have LONG lost out to proprietary graphics APIs in gaming. OpenGL had a very small base in games, Vulkan is even smal…

Why do you have tunnel vision on "native". It's a pretty meaningless distinction at this point. No steam deck users cares that all the games they are playing aren't "native".
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