The Effects of Early Relational Trauma (2001) [pdf] • Hacker News Board

Re: The Effects of Early Relational Trauma (2001) [pdf]

#171

Post by tsegratis » Wed, May 22, 2024, 11:49 PM UTC

SketchySeaBeast wrote: post #164

tsegratis wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Since 1972, marriage rates in the US have fallen by almost 50%, and are currently at the lowest point in recorded history" "The share of children born outside of marriage has increased substantially in almost all OECD countries" https://ourworldindata.org/marriages-and-divorces But you are right divorce rates vary, for instance decreasing post covid. I was thinking on the century scale. But also percentage of people…

> "The share of children born outside of marriage has increased substantially in almost all OECD countries" This seems like it's unrelated to divorce. I don't think it's fair to look at divorces on a century basis given that no fault divorce only became possible in the United States in 1969 - before that you needed to prove there was some sort of abuse or infidelity involved. It certainly becomes more complicated to…

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Re: The Effects of Early Relational Trauma (2001) [pdf]

#172

Post by pm » Thu, May 23, 2024, 12:54 AM UTC

matrix87 wrote: post #165

pm wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You might think it's getting by, but you've got no idea of how much damage this attitude unwittingly propagates the trauma on succeeding generations. I've seen this firsthand in my own family, a family beset with undiagnosed ADHD and trauma from a violent patriarch, who was no doubt subject to the same abuse, lying about his age to join armies on BOTH sides of the conflict in WW2 to escape and eventually emigrate. As…

> it's more much more likely those who have been traumatised are seeking understanding, rather than healthy then traumatised by their curiosity The fact that trauma is now everywhere sort of de-legitimizes it to the point where there's no way of knowing in the average case. Also the fact that it's essentially a business at this point > but you've got no idea of how much damage this attitude unwittingly propagates the…

> The fact that trauma is now everywhere sort of de-legitimizes it to the point where there's no way of knowing in the average case.

I can tell you that trauma is very real for the person experiencing it, and it's this kind of flippant dismissal that stops people from seeking help.

Trauma everywhere, in what fashion? Perhaps because more people are talking about it, more people are getting the courage to talk about it.

> Sounds like you're saying: become emotionally pure or else.

Emotionally pure? What does that even mean? It was phrased as a warning, because I've experienced this attitude within my family, and seen the damage it's caused, and continues to cause. Eventually, the damaged start damaging others, people put their hands over the ears pretending nothing's happening, and the cycle continues.

> Personally I'd rather have "trauma" than play this little head game.

What head game is being played?

> If anything, we're doing significantly more damage by teaching upcoming generations to trust the pharmaceutical industry.

The argument I was making had nothing to do with the pharmaceutical industry. It was about how trauma gets suppressed, and how that can institute a cycle of trauma, so be wary of how you approach it. It's all about taking care of people.

Re: The Effects of Early Relational Trauma (2001) [pdf]

#173

Post by Spooky23 » Thu, May 23, 2024, 12:58 AM UTC

sleno wrote: post #87

igorramazanov wrote: post #36

Attachment Theory is an interesting subject on the matter. A few useful books which helped me with both understanding and healing (there're still problems, but it gets better): 1. Love Sense, Sue Johnson. 2. The Power of Attachment, Diane Pooler Heller. 3. Understanding Disorganized Attachment: Theory and Practice for Working with Children and Adults, David, Shemmings and Yvonne Shemmings. 4. The Body Keeps the Score…

Could you summarize some practical takeaways from all these books? To be honest I've become a bit skeptical of how much this sort of stuff helps. From what I see, our society has become much more well-versed in all this psychology-therapy-trauma material in the last 20 years, yet despite this we're taking more anti-depressants and seeing more therapy than ever. Mentally and spiritually we seem to be doing worse than…

Who says we’ve been getting by well?

People who learn not to trust as children retain that into adulthood. Thats the core issue with many problems. It’s even a driver for PTSD - not everyone goes to war or experiences something terrible and leaves with a disorder.

Consider 100 years ago it was acceptable to beat your wife. It was not considered socially unusual for a working class man to have his children underfed after drinking his salary away. Thats an example of how humans poorly cope with the inhumane conditions of industrial society.

Trauma is in the eyes of the beholder.

I’m part of a catholic community that is a loving and supportive place. I’m not a dogmatic or “good catholic” by any means, but I find inspiration and meditative comfort in prayer. And having gone through some horrific challenges in my life, my friends and family there have helped me get through. There’s no magic imo, your “tribe” will help you get through things.

Re: The Effects of Early Relational Trauma (2001) [pdf]

#174

Post by Spooky23 » Thu, May 23, 2024, 1:05 AM UTC

wing-_-nuts wrote: post #153

astrange wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Religion and psychiatry hardly seem opposed to me. It's popular to see Buddhism as actually a kind of therapy, although certainly not 100% correct, and that's sort of what prayer is meant to do too.

I prefer to keep them separate. The christian councilor I saw was very big into 'everything happens for a reason' and 'god has a plan' and given my background it turned my stomach. If what i went through was 'part of a plan' I have some very pointed questions for god when I meet him.

Some clergy are well educated, others are not. Likewise, therapists vary a lot. I’ve been fortunate to have known some priests very well who are nothing short of amazing, wise people.

Someone leaning on the “everything happens for a reason” in a counseling context is gross - I almost took a swing at someone bleating that when my wife died.

Re: The Effects of Early Relational Trauma (2001) [pdf]

#175

Post by rjbwork » Thu, May 23, 2024, 1:29 AM UTC

zaphar wrote: post #121

graemep wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Somehow, humans managed to get by for thousands of years without any of this stuff. In very different societies. Our societies have gradually become less and less like what we evolved to fit into: small groups, time out doors, lots of face to face contact with people you are close to etc. Some past societies were pretty miserable for many people. I am pretty sure slaves had lots of trauma and other psychological pr…

Religious Faith and Belief are choices. They have to be because they are fundamentally about unprovable things. So in one sense they are absolutely practical. However if you don't want to choose a religion then it may not be practical for you. It is in no way the case though that Faith is something that just happens to you. It's a personal choice.

I don't think it's a choice. If you don't believe something, no amount of trying to make yourself believe it is going to make it so. A whole lot of people raised in a religion who are now atheists can attest to the extreme mental turmoil trying to do so during the deconversion process can cause. You either believe, or don't believe in any given brand of supernatural unobservable phenomenon.

Re: The Effects of Early Relational Trauma (2001) [pdf]

#176

Post by matrix87 » Thu, May 23, 2024, 1:51 AM UTC

pm wrote: post #172

matrix87 wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it's more much more likely those who have been traumatised are seeking understanding, rather than healthy then traumatised by their curiosity The fact that trauma is now everywhere sort of de-legitimizes it to the point where there's no way of knowing in the average case. Also the fact that it's essentially a business at this point > but you've got no idea of how much damage this attitude unwittingly propagates the…

> The fact that trauma is now everywhere sort of de-legitimizes it to the point where there's no way of knowing in the average case. I can tell you that trauma is very real for the person experiencing it, and it's this kind of flippant dismissal that stops people from seeking help. Trauma everywhere, in what fashion? Perhaps because more people are talking about it, more people are getting the courage to talk about i…

> Trauma everywhere, in what fashion? Perhaps because more people are talking about it, more people are getting the courage to talk about it.

Social contagion is a thing. Just because more people are taking about something doesn't mean it's true

> Eventually, the damaged start damaging others, people put their hands over the ears pretending nothing's happening, and the cycle continues.

It doesn't take therapy or a bunch of trauma ideology to know that hurting people is wrong. Someone could have a perfect upbringing and still be a piece of shit. Alternatively someone could have a shitty upbringing and be a good person. The latter case doesn't require the person to "come to terms with their trauma" in the methodology that gets dictated to them by this decade's version of psychology

> The argument I was making had nothing to do with the pharmaceutical industry.

Maybe not directly, I was suggesting a more productive alternative than the one in the comment I was responding to

Re: The Effects of Early Relational Trauma (2001) [pdf]

#177

Post by SoftTalker » Thu, May 23, 2024, 2:14 AM UTC

smeej wrote: post #163

01HNNWZ0MV43FF wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The concern is whether you're missing out on something you would have preferred to have. I missed out on a lot of young adult stuff, partying, traveling, sleeping around, and I can't seem to get over it. I have lots of money but I can't seem to buy my way out of resentment and envy for people who had a more ordinary life

I think you've nailed it, and that it's subjective. I missed out on those things too, but it doesn't bother me at all, because they're not things I wanted to experience, whereas parenthood feels to me like a big loss. (I know it's not necessarily final, and there are lots of kids in the world in need of people who want to be parents. I'm not without hope that something like this is still in my future. That's not real…

Yeah but you're missing out on what you imagine parenthood is, not the reality of what it is. I'm not saying parenthood can't be great, and most of us are biologically wired to want it, but there's also a far-from-zero chance that it can be heartbreaking. If, for whatever reason, you did not get to be a parent, you can still help children in many other ways and you can still live a life of positive influence in your community and among those close to you, and you will have done far more good with your life than many parents do.

Re: The Effects of Early Relational Trauma (2001) [pdf]

#178

Post by TeeMassive » Thu, May 23, 2024, 2:42 AM UTC

lanstin wrote: post #112

aidenn0 wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's remarkable how institutions (the school psychologist in your case) often re-inflict the trauma that is going on at home. It's their job to protect the child, but often they do the opposite, and it's worth asking why. I experienced this myself, though in a very different context—everyone's story is unique of course. I think the simplest explanation here is Sturgeon's law: 90% of everything is crud. This goes fo…

The abusers really can go from threatening a six year old with what sounds like credible threats to making the adults laugh within seconds without any visible whiplash. And the will to deny is extremely strong; to believe the child one has to revamp one's beliefs about society in a large and risky direction.

They genuinely believe that everything is justified; even if they hide what they are doing from public view. "I do this because I care about you, other parents would have given up a long time ago". The hiding is also blamed on the child, claiming that he or she is the one that would destroy their reputation if words got out of what he or she did and what the extend of what the parents had to do to "remedy" the situation.

Re: The Effects of Early Relational Trauma (2001) [pdf]

#179

Post by TeeMassive » Thu, May 23, 2024, 3:02 AM UTC

MezzoDelCammin wrote: post #67

TeeMassive wrote: post #41

Finally a subject my childhood makes me "expert" at! People often say that I have a unsavory dark humor, but it's one of the best coping mechanism out there. My earliest memory is my mother spreading food all over my face because I didn't want to finish my plate. I remember my eyes hurting because of the pepper in it. My father threatened to shoot the family dog on a weekly basis to make me behave. I could not leave…

Sorry You had to go through that... But if we're doing an AMA : mind writing a bit more about the recovery? You mentioned humor as a coping strategy, so that makes me think You've probably been through some kind of introspection / therapy. Mind writing a bit more on what worked / didn't in Your case?

I would say that recovery started when I got out of the house for university. I picked a university that was at least 6 hours of driving away.

It was absolutely terrible and laborious; yet necessary. Being not socialized and not able to leave home alone for a very long time made me basically afraid of going outside the campus; I had to learn most life lessons people go through from childhood to early adulthood from scratch. People don't forgive you when you're an adult. Abusers love dependent children, even if they lament all the time that "you cost too much".

One of the things that's hard is separating the actual good parenting lessons from the abuse. From basic hygiene to on how to behave socially. Everything was laced in some kind of humiliation. "I told you this would happen, you think you're smarter than me haha!" kind of routine all the time.

I've never had therapy nor did I seek professional help. The bad experiences I've had with psychologists and other "professionals" that sided believed my parents by default were enough for me. This is not what I recommend, but I just can't let myself be vulnerable by the same kind of people again. It's like asking a severe burns victim to go through a firefighting course with live exercises. I have the chance of being smart and deeply introspective, but this is not perfect and very slow and fraught with painful mistakes. Just like most people should not represent themselves in a court of law, even if they're lawyers, I would not recommend doing that.

I mainly relied on the podcasts, shows and books from mental health professionals and also public forums, although I didn't really participate. Writing this stuff used to hurt a lot with a lot of flashbacks. Basically I did my own research, haha. Putting words to emotions and situations helps a lot, because abusers love twisting words, concepts and using logical fallacies to justify themselves. Also learning that I am not alone and that was happened to me was not right nor justified really helped a lot and was very validating.

I'm not done healing and probably never will be healed, but there is resilience and confidence that comes with successfully surmounting adversity.

Re: The Effects of Early Relational Trauma (2001) [pdf]

#180

Post by TeeMassive » Thu, May 23, 2024, 3:15 AM UTC

minipci1321 wrote: post #95

TeeMassive wrote: post #41

Finally a subject my childhood makes me "expert" at! People often say that I have a unsavory dark humor, but it's one of the best coping mechanism out there. My earliest memory is my mother spreading food all over my face because I didn't want to finish my plate. I remember my eyes hurting because of the pepper in it. My father threatened to shoot the family dog on a weekly basis to make me behave. I could not leave…

Do you have siblings? How have they turned out?

I have two older sisters. They are way older than me, which means they left for college when I was very young (when I was bout 5 or 6). I don't think they went through the same stuff as me, but still lived through a lot of very fucked up shit. We live in the same city and are very close, we see each other for their kids birthday and all of that. I'm very lucky to have them.

I know why my mother had me years later, because when my father was angry he would yell at my mother "it's you who wanted another, so take care of him", but with more vicious insults. It turns out that when my mother had her first pregnancy, she was supposed to have a son but had a miscarriage in the toilet. I think this pretty much explains her using me to satisfy her emotional needs all the time; I literally was her emotional garbage can. Telling me how she feels like an ATM for the family, how she's lonely and not taken seriously by others; things that a husband have to deal with, not a child.

So anyway, my sisters began to extended family members about what happened in our house when they were young and also of what happened to me. Like me, it probably took them years to unshame themselves and flip the culpability unto the abusers. It created a scandal I think in the extended family, although always very hush hush, as is usual in small rural places.

My parents probably got a word of what my sisters told about them and then when my oldest sister got her first child, it was actually my parents who stopped talking to them. They never told me why they stopped talking to my sisters, but we figured it out. For some reason that enraged my father and forced my mother to stop talking to them but not to me. After a few years I got tired of seeing them trying to play nice and burning bridges after bridges with other family members and family friends, and I decided to cut them off. Although my sisters never made any kind of ultimatum, I could see how my parents were throwing a wrench between my and my sisters by only talking to me and not to them.

There are more details to this sordid story. It really could make for a full TV drama episode; these people love drama and being the victim. Don't fall for their game.