The Effects of Early Relational Trauma (2001) [pdf] • Hacker News Board

Re: The Effects of Early Relational Trauma (2001) [pdf]

#161

Post by [deleted] » Wed, May 22, 2024, 8:56 PM UTC

deciplex wrote: post #133

sleno wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could you summarize some practical takeaways from all these books? To be honest I've become a bit skeptical of how much this sort of stuff helps. From what I see, our society has become much more well-versed in all this psychology-therapy-trauma material in the last 20 years, yet despite this we're taking more anti-depressants and seeing more therapy than ever. Mentally and spiritually we seem to be doing worse than…

For what it's worth, I'm mostly in agreement with you that contemporary therapy is overrated. I did have one quibble: > Somehow, humans managed to get by for thousands of years without any of this stuff. In fact, and this is especially true for men, the correct response to this line of reasoning is basically "well, actually, no they didn't." The genetic lineages of most men over the entirety of human history, are ext…

[deleted]

Re: The Effects of Early Relational Trauma (2001) [pdf]

#162

Post by smeej » Wed, May 22, 2024, 9:00 PM UTC

SketchySeaBeast wrote: post #142

smeej wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The list of "Reasons for Estrangement" in that first article is sorely lacking in anything that acknowledges the parent might be at fault.

It really does seem like the sort of article an estranged parent would find extremely satisfying to read. Remember, it's someone else turning your child against you!

Estranged parents seem to think everything was fine and then suddenly changed, and usually "for no reason."

I had four friends, separately, individually, reach out to me and say, "I know this isn't actually my business, and I wonder whether I should even say anything, but why does your dad think it's OK to talk to you like he does?"

I then spent three more years telling him each time he belittled me or spoke to me like a child that he could either speak to me with the common decency every single person deserves just by virtue of being human, or I would prevent him from speaking to me altogether.

It was never fine, but growing up in his house, I never knew any different was possible. I thought that was just how I deserved to be treated.

It took other people to tell me it wasn't OK, and had never been OK, but I guarantee if you ask him, he will tell you he has no idea what happened, and will certainly blame anyone but himself.

Re: The Effects of Early Relational Trauma (2001) [pdf]

#163

Post by smeej » Wed, May 22, 2024, 9:05 PM UTC

01HNNWZ0MV43FF wrote: post #155

SoftTalker wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everyone "misses out" on things either due to choices they make or events/accidents that are out of their control. Being a parent can be rewarding but it also comes with a lot of expense, worry, and sacrifice. There are a lot of things a childless person or couple can do that would be difficult or impossible for someone with kids, and a lot of things that they will never have to deal with (e.g. serious illness or dea…

The concern is whether you're missing out on something you would have preferred to have. I missed out on a lot of young adult stuff, partying, traveling, sleeping around, and I can't seem to get over it. I have lots of money but I can't seem to buy my way out of resentment and envy for people who had a more ordinary life

I think you've nailed it, and that it's subjective.

I missed out on those things too, but it doesn't bother me at all, because they're not things I wanted to experience, whereas parenthood feels to me like a big loss.

(I know it's not necessarily final, and there are lots of kids in the world in need of people who want to be parents. I'm not without hope that something like this is still in my future. That's not really the point here though.)

Re: The Effects of Early Relational Trauma (2001) [pdf]

#164

Post by SketchySeaBeast » Wed, May 22, 2024, 9:07 PM UTC

tsegratis wrote: post #159

SketchySeaBeast wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Divorce is a massive cause of trauma and increasing in the west Not true that it's increasing. It peaked in the 70s and has decreased since. [1] https://www.bgsu.edu/ncfmr/resources/data/family-profiles/lo...

"Since 1972, marriage rates in the US have fallen by almost 50%, and are currently at the lowest point in recorded history" "The share of children born outside of marriage has increased substantially in almost all OECD countries" https://ourworldindata.org/marriages-and-divorces But you are right divorce rates vary, for instance decreasing post covid. I was thinking on the century scale. But also percentage of people…

> "The share of children born outside of marriage has increased substantially in almost all OECD countries"

This seems like it's unrelated to divorce.

I don't think it's fair to look at divorces on a century basis given that no fault divorce only became possible in the United States in 1969 - before that you needed to prove there was some sort of abuse or infidelity involved.

It certainly becomes more complicated to try and draw trends, and impossible to assume it was stronger family value that held them together before that point - in fact, the peak in the early 70s indicates that once it became possible it was used with gusto.

Re: The Effects of Early Relational Trauma (2001) [pdf]

#165

Post by matrix87 » Wed, May 22, 2024, 9:15 PM UTC

pm wrote: post #128

sleno wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could you summarize some practical takeaways from all these books? To be honest I've become a bit skeptical of how much this sort of stuff helps. From what I see, our society has become much more well-versed in all this psychology-therapy-trauma material in the last 20 years, yet despite this we're taking more anti-depressants and seeing more therapy than ever. Mentally and spiritually we seem to be doing worse than…

You might think it's getting by, but you've got no idea of how much damage this attitude unwittingly propagates the trauma on succeeding generations. I've seen this firsthand in my own family, a family beset with undiagnosed ADHD and trauma from a violent patriarch, who was no doubt subject to the same abuse, lying about his age to join armies on BOTH sides of the conflict in WW2 to escape and eventually emigrate. As…

> it's more much more likely those who have been traumatised are seeking understanding, rather than healthy then traumatised by their curiosity

The fact that trauma is now everywhere sort of de-legitimizes it to the point where there's no way of knowing in the average case. Also the fact that it's essentially a business at this point

> but you've got no idea of how much damage this attitude unwittingly propagates the trauma on succeeding generations

Sounds like you're saying: become emotionally pure or else. Personally I'd rather have "trauma" than play this little head game. And imo the younger generations will be better off, on average, not playing it either

If anything, we're doing significantly more damage by teaching upcoming generations to trust the pharmaceutical industry

Re: The Effects of Early Relational Trauma (2001) [pdf]

#166

Post by NoMoreNicksLeft » Wed, May 22, 2024, 9:16 PM UTC

smeej wrote: post #28

AndrewKemendo wrote: post #19

In the microplastics thread, so many were ready to assign blame for so many pervasive ills to the prevalence of microplastics. Meanwhile we have known about the devastating effect of interpersonal trauma in childhood and just shrug or worse, say “well that’s how my parents did it and I’m fine.” Foundationally there is no problem more urgent than eliminating interpersonal alienation at every possible interaction and e…

I love that "and I'm fine" line. I see it a lot in contexts where someone is defending something that seems barbaric to me, which I would consider a very clear sign that they are not fine. It leads to a lot of, "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means," at least in my internal dialogue.

I'm trying to be open-minded reading through this thread. I don't understand much of it at all. Everything's in English, follows grammar rules, etc. But semantically it all seems empty. I have a large vocabulary, and I haven't had to look up any of the words that aren't modern psych jargon (and few of those).

It's difficult to understand what you even mean by trauma. I understand it perfectly in a medical context, these are acute and potentially deadly injuries that must be treated immediately. In this thread? I can't make sense of it. Not 10 comments above yours, there was someone suggesting that "abuse" and "trauma" don't even correlate perfectly... which sort of seems insightful, but also confuses things even more. I could at least deal with the idea of some hidden psychiatric illness that originates from physical/sexual abuse, but if even that's the case... then what should I be taking away from this?

I can't speak for the others, but I definitely don't know what you mean. Not even slightly.

Re: The Effects of Early Relational Trauma (2001) [pdf]

#167

Post by prewett » Wed, May 22, 2024, 9:22 PM UTC

wing-_-nuts wrote: post #153

astrange wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Religion and psychiatry hardly seem opposed to me. It's popular to see Buddhism as actually a kind of therapy, although certainly not 100% correct, and that's sort of what prayer is meant to do too.

I prefer to keep them separate. The christian councilor I saw was very big into 'everything happens for a reason' and 'god has a plan' and given my background it turned my stomach. If what i went through was 'part of a plan' I have some very pointed questions for god when I meet him.

I hope the reason given was something like "people have free will and sometimes they use it to do evil" (which is why forgiveness is a thing), and that "God has a plan" includes a plan to heal and restore (for instance, Jesus saying "I came that [my sheep] may have abundant life" or "I came to destroy the works of the evil one"). If it's just "everything happens for a reason" but nothing more, that's basically saying "I don't know how to help you".

Possibly off-topic rant: If the reason is "it was God's will, because God is sovereign and therefore everything is his will", I think that is bordering on function heresy. Christianity (and life) has all these tensions: God is one, but God is three; Jesus is a man, but Jesus is God; God is sovereign, but he gave us free will. The temptation is to resolve the tension by cutting off one of the ends of the tension. The original heretics chopped off one of the ends of the tension about Jesus: Jesus was only man and not God (for example, Adoptionism, Arianism) and Jesus was only divine and not man (for example, Docetism, Apollinarianism). The view that evil is God's will is similarly chopping off our responsibility, so it is doing the same thing that the original heretics did. In my view, the biblical view is that people doing evil is NOT God's will, but what he wants to achieve requires that he give us free will (and his plan of resolving our choice to do evil is to put his spirit in our hearts).

Re: The Effects of Early Relational Trauma (2001) [pdf]

#168

Post by graemep » Wed, May 22, 2024, 9:35 PM UTC

zaphar wrote: post #121

graemep wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Somehow, humans managed to get by for thousands of years without any of this stuff. In very different societies. Our societies have gradually become less and less like what we evolved to fit into: small groups, time out doors, lots of face to face contact with people you are close to etc. Some past societies were pretty miserable for many people. I am pretty sure slaves had lots of trauma and other psychological pr…

Religious Faith and Belief are choices. They have to be because they are fundamentally about unprovable things. So in one sense they are absolutely practical. However if you don't want to choose a religion then it may not be practical for you. It is in no way the case though that Faith is something that just happens to you. It's a personal choice.

Not provable to others. Many people are religious on the basis of religious experiences experiences, some on philosophical or other arguments that others find unconvincing. some even do not want to believe - CS Lewis described himself as 'the most dejected convert in England' for this reason.

Re: The Effects of Early Relational Trauma (2001) [pdf]

#169

Post by wumbo » Wed, May 22, 2024, 9:54 PM UTC

graemep wrote: post #116

wumbo wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“some great value in religion” takes a long time of filtering through stories and metaphors to find the actual point. I get it, some lessons are hard to teach and it’s easier to present the framework of the lesson in a story, then people make connections as they grow. But you also have to consider all of the harmful misinterpretations that come with it. If most people come away from religion less ethical than nonreli…

> If most people come away from religion less ethical than nonreligious people How do you test that? You cannot do a double blind test because you cannot induce religion in people to order. > let’s see if we can take the good parts of the texts and throw the rest away. I do not think you can do that. Each religion is largely shaped by a few key ideas. Remove one of those and you change it radically (losing the good)…

I take it as a fair enough assumption for my judgements that all people have the same average personality potential at birth.

I’ve been around a lot of very Catholic people. I’d say half are well intentioned, whereas half are belligerent antivax etc.

The ones with good intentions prop up and obey the bad actors.

The ones with good intentions end up feeling trapped by the community and the religious trauma. Sometimes the good ones end up taking it out on their spouses/kids, perceived as units of the oppressive structure (though they are victims alike).

The difficulty of reform is all the more reason I’m happy for the slow decline in religiosity.

Re: The Effects of Early Relational Trauma (2001) [pdf]

#170

Post by to11mtm » Wed, May 22, 2024, 10:38 PM UTC

01HNNWZ0MV43FF wrote: post #155

SoftTalker wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everyone "misses out" on things either due to choices they make or events/accidents that are out of their control. Being a parent can be rewarding but it also comes with a lot of expense, worry, and sacrifice. There are a lot of things a childless person or couple can do that would be difficult or impossible for someone with kids, and a lot of things that they will never have to deal with (e.g. serious illness or dea…

The concern is whether you're missing out on something you would have preferred to have. I missed out on a lot of young adult stuff, partying, traveling, sleeping around, and I can't seem to get over it. I have lots of money but I can't seem to buy my way out of resentment and envy for people who had a more ordinary life

I can say that from personal experience, sometimes it is the way things get projected in society or specific circles.

I'll give an example. I once rented at a house where the landlady and her partner were (eventually both) poly.

They were starbucks baristas that went clubbing/dating/etc far more frequently than me, I was getting back on my feet after finally being able to work on my childhood and 20s trauma.

Every new outfit, every new partner, was it's own show-off or conversation.

When I got a promotion, I did the 'got-a-promotion' thing and bought myself a 'decent' lens. My landlady's partner was a photographer and we had spoken about the topic in the past. As soon as I brought it up as a friendly shared interest topic? 'You are bragging/waving privilege'.

They were still, of course, happy to flaunt during 'game nights' that the majority of the group was going for all sorts of 'shenanigans' while myself and the other person that got driven out before me...

essentially realized they were narcissists. Well, really just the one and the Landlady was being manipulated by her partner. Fun talks with housemates, right?

But that is the bigger warning for those who have early trauma.

There are those who may or may not have their own trauma, some of them may actually mean well, but a -lot- of them will look at you as an easy target to beat down or manipulate to their own ends. When they get the 'win-win' of "This person has made better life choices than me, 'but I am smarter than them and am taking advantage of them'" is when it gets dangerous.

Smart people know. But they are trying to be polite or patient.

(Which, on the part of my former landlady's partner, is kinda sad. The only way she could feel better about themself was by taking someone they called a friend and trying to 'neg' them... I wasn't the only victim but I might have been the most gullible back then...)