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U.S. Rules Apple Illegally Interrogated Staff and Confiscated Union Flyers

forbes.com

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Re: U.S. Rules Apple Illegally Interrogated Staff and Confiscated Union Flyers

#211

Post by sonicanatidae »

weard_beard wrote: post #197
trollbridge wrote: post #189

This seems to be part of a persistent pattern of businesses thinking they are above the law, and when challenged, the filing of endless countersuits and appeals. At some point, the democratic process elected Congress and the laws passed therein, and businesses exist at the pleasure of the people and their elected representatives, not the other way around. A business that doesn’t want to unionise is free to close up s…

Regulatory capture and non-existant enforcement mechanisms would beg to differ. It seems more and more that the US is waiting for the general public to commit egregious acts and then will crack down and that this is the ONLY function of the US government at all levels.

This is the issue.

Even when an entity is cornered for wrong-doing, it'll be a fine, paid with other people's money, that amounts to a pittance compared to the profits gained from their malfeasance, all while "admitting no wrong-doing".

The C-suite that made the call, set the culture, and determined budgets suffers zero penalties in a majority of the cases, so there is literally no incentive to comply.

We can thank congressional bribery for that.

Re: U.S. Rules Apple Illegally Interrogated Staff and Confiscated Union Flyers

#212

Post by snapcaster »

alkonaut wrote: post #178
snapcaster wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a difference though, it's which side they're on

When it comes to employee vs employer, they are employed just like everyone else and can have disputes with their employer just like everyone else. They are on their own side. If police want to end single person patrols for safety concerns, or want a minimum number of hours rest between shifts, that's what their union would be for. It doesn't look any different when it's police vs. teachers in that case.

This comes of as ahistorical to me (as an american at least). Every significant moment in the US labor movement came down to workers vs. police, it's not like the robber barons were shooting the miners, steelworkers, etc. themselves

Re: U.S. Rules Apple Illegally Interrogated Staff and Confiscated Union Flyers

#213

Post by snapcaster »

svieira wrote: post #203
snapcaster wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's because the police are always on the side of capital

Which of course, isn't true. The Red Guard was a police force in a very real sense as was the NKVD.

Article is about US company violating US labor guards so yeah my comment really only applies to the US labor movement. Can't speak to Red Guard don't really know anything about them

Re: U.S. Rules Apple Illegally Interrogated Staff and Confiscated Union Flyers

#214

Post by mort96 »

spamizbad wrote: post #200
Stranger43 wrote: post #22

I wonder why US companies keep pulling stunts like this despite the data showing little negative impact of unionization to overall productivity nor company survival. It looks to be a purely dogmatic ego trip where somehow blind loyalty is demanded even when it's not actually necessary.

Nobody wants to admit it, but businesses are deeply ideological. Not in the typical sense, but they have lots of strongly held irrational beliefs that are contradictory. They are not rational actors.

I think this is pretty correct; the owning class is ideologically opposed to worker control.

Re: U.S. Rules Apple Illegally Interrogated Staff and Confiscated Union Flyers

#215

Post by brookst »

alkonaut wrote: post #123
DrewRWx wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Police aren't labor and therefore are not a labor union.

In what sense aren't police labor? "Labor" literally just means "work"? It's not like the unions of managers, pilots, lawyers, NHL players or software developers aren't "labor unions"? Policemen are employed so their organization as employees is a labor union (or just "union" for short)?

I’m actually with the parent — police are administrative, like judges and building inspectors.

I don’t have a fully formed opinion, but I think there is something wrong with unions for government functions. Unions are good because they allow a large number of weak stakeholders to band together to negotiate with a powerful business.

But governments aren’t businesses and don’t have the ruthless profit motive companies do, so I think government unions have too much bargaining power against the very diffuse stakeholders of a government. Police unions especially seem to exist more to avoid accountability than to further wages and working conditions.

I guess I would say that “labor” in the union context is in contrast to “shareholder”, and governments and their employees just don’t work that way.

Re: U.S. Rules Apple Illegally Interrogated Staff and Confiscated Union Flyers

#216

Post by marnett »

hermannj314 wrote: post #154
inamorty wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did Europeans descend from elves instead of primates?

I thought the general opinion was that the percentage or working age men your society lost in WW2 determined what lesson you learned from it. America didn't lose enough men to qualify for the "collectivism" unlock.

I’ve never heard this before but I’m very interested in the concept. Who wrote about this?

Re: U.S. Rules Apple Illegally Interrogated Staff and Confiscated Union Flyers

#217

Post by brookst »

burutthrow1234 wrote: post #144
alkonaut wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So they have a union, which is not a labor union? fair enough. It seems like a distinction without a difference for the topic. Some restrictions on strikes usually covers lots of different jobs (e.g. nurses).

There's an important distinction because a police "union" is in opposition to any other workers and unions. The police are the tools of capital, they break up strikes. The cops aren't going to join you in a sympathy strike.

Indeed. “Cartel” or “guild” would be better terms than police “union”.

Re: U.S. Rules Apple Illegally Interrogated Staff and Confiscated Union Flyers

#218

Post by harimau777 »

bko wrote: post #162
baq wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

employers have HR, employees have unions. HR is corporate police. employers hate the idea of having employee police.

I think employers hate having to deal with a gatekeeper and some rubric as to who they can hire to do what, how much to pay them etc I've worked in places where there was union labor for building management. You literally weren't allowed to unplug your computer and move it yourself. You had to file a ticket and have somebody come and do it for you and bill handsomely to do it. What's not to love from an employer pers…

I'd argue that policies like that are the fault of employers not unions. Those sorts of rules are meant to protect against employers reducing workforce by heaping extra work on a smaller number of employees. If employers didn't try to pull stunts like that then the rules would not be necessary.

Re: U.S. Rules Apple Illegally Interrogated Staff and Confiscated Union Flyers

#219

Post by dessimus »

trollbridge wrote: post #189

This seems to be part of a persistent pattern of businesses thinking they are above the law, and when challenged, the filing of endless countersuits and appeals. At some point, the democratic process elected Congress and the laws passed therein, and businesses exist at the pleasure of the people and their elected representatives, not the other way around. A business that doesn’t want to unionise is free to close up s…

From the article: "The board cannot impose fines or direct punishments against Apple for its violations."

So there is literally no consequence to Apple, or any other company from doing these actions, meaning there is no law to be above. If the IRS could do only make public statements that people didn't pay income taxes without any repercussions otherwise, no one pay their taxes ever.

If CxOs and Board could be held accountable and fined say 10% of annual compensation, maybe they would be less inclined to allow these actions to occur.

Re: U.S. Rules Apple Illegally Interrogated Staff and Confiscated Union Flyers

#220

Post by [deleted] »

lupusreal wrote: post #208
pbmonster wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dues, I imagine. If you don't strike very often, the war chest keeps filling... That war chest, in combination with it being unthinkable that a big union goes bankrupt, and the fact that they are building real estate, pretty much means they can borrow more money dirt cheap.

I guess it just seems strange to me for a union to be so rich, yet their members can't afford to live in regular housing. I grew up in a factory town in America with a unionized workforce and despite the things people say about American unions, the workers there all did very well. At least until the plant was sold to private equity about 10 years ago... I hear bad things now... but for several generations the union s…

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