U.S. Rules Apple Illegally Interrogated Staff and Confiscated Union Flyers • Hacker News Board

Re: U.S. Rules Apple Illegally Interrogated Staff and Confiscated Union Flyers

#21

Post by FBT » Wed, May 08, 2024, 7:37 AM UTC

wolverine876 wrote: post #10

sjtgraham wrote: post #5

The whole idea of the executive branch functioning as the judicial branch is a bananas concept to me.

Instead of the same old talking point, what solution do you propose? Should the executive branch agency make decisions by fiat, without due process? The use of due process doesn't make them a judiciary; it's just a more fair way to make decisions within their purview. Should we move every such judgment out of the executive branch's hands? First, they have to be able to make some decisions. But the heart of this issue…

> There aren't nearly enough capacity in the judicial branch to handle all that work.

Then appoint more Article 3 judges. It could even be the same people who are now "administrative judges"—but take them out of the executive branch hierarchy, and give them the independence that the constitution requires judges to have.

Re: U.S. Rules Apple Illegally Interrogated Staff and Confiscated Union Flyers

#22

Post by Stranger43 » Wed, May 08, 2024, 7:37 AM UTC

I wonder why US companies keep pulling stunts like this despite the data showing little negative impact of unionization to overall productivity nor company survival.

It looks to be a purely dogmatic ego trip where somehow blind loyalty is demanded even when it's not actually necessary.

Re: U.S. Rules Apple Illegally Interrogated Staff and Confiscated Union Flyers

#23

Post by badgersnake » Wed, May 08, 2024, 7:38 AM UTC

jollofricepeas wrote: post #7

I don’t understand how so many HNers are anti-union and anti-collective bargaining. The fact that corporations and billionaires are so anti-union and engage in regular conduct like this demonstrates that unions are pro-worker and ideal for the balance needed in the US and across the globe. Balance is key between workers and owners. Without it we are left with growing wealth inequality such as… - ridiculous housing pr…

It’s a forum run by a VC firm.

Re: U.S. Rules Apple Illegally Interrogated Staff and Confiscated Union Flyers

#24

Post by nicce » Wed, May 08, 2024, 7:40 AM UTC

Stranger43 wrote: post #22

I wonder why US companies keep pulling stunts like this despite the data showing little negative impact of unionization to overall productivity nor company survival. It looks to be a purely dogmatic ego trip where somehow blind loyalty is demanded even when it's not actually necessary.

If it saves even a little money, it will happen.

Re: U.S. Rules Apple Illegally Interrogated Staff and Confiscated Union Flyers

#25

Post by therouwboat » Wed, May 08, 2024, 7:40 AM UTC

cjk2 wrote: post #12

jollofricepeas wrote: post #7

I don’t understand how so many HNers are anti-union and anti-collective bargaining. The fact that corporations and billionaires are so anti-union and engage in regular conduct like this demonstrates that unions are pro-worker and ideal for the balance needed in the US and across the globe. Balance is key between workers and owners. Without it we are left with growing wealth inequality such as… - ridiculous housing pr…

I'm anti-union AND pro labour regulation. Your government should be targeting wealth inequality with legislation and public services on all of these issues. The union tends to become another opaque organisation with a power hierarchy of its own and layers of internal politics and power struggles. The unions rarely if ever push for legislation change either because it would risk their existence. The corporations shoul…

"The corporations should live in fear of the government, not an independent union."

I think that membership funded union would be much likely to protect worker rights than tax funded government.

Re: U.S. Rules Apple Illegally Interrogated Staff and Confiscated Union Flyers

#26

Post by komali2 » Wed, May 08, 2024, 7:41 AM UTC

Stranger43 wrote: post #22

I wonder why US companies keep pulling stunts like this despite the data showing little negative impact of unionization to overall productivity nor company survival. It looks to be a purely dogmatic ego trip where somehow blind loyalty is demanded even when it's not actually necessary.

I personally believe companies are given way too much credit in being considered rational pure-profit motive actors. They're far worse than that (a rational pure-profit motive actor is also bad because it would inevitably select for slavery): they're typically run by extremely conservative, often ivy-league people (if not in alma mater, then in worship of ivy league culture). These people are trained from the get go to associate unions with everything antithetical to their cult heroes of people like Ford or Edison. Once in an argument with a similarly minded founder, he dropped the line on me, "unions are anti-capitalist," which to me really reveals the mindset that to at least him, negotiating from positions of equal power is not capitalism.

Re: U.S. Rules Apple Illegally Interrogated Staff and Confiscated Union Flyers

#27

Post by pmontra » Wed, May 08, 2024, 7:42 AM UTC

cjk2 wrote: post #12

jollofricepeas wrote: post #7

I don’t understand how so many HNers are anti-union and anti-collective bargaining. The fact that corporations and billionaires are so anti-union and engage in regular conduct like this demonstrates that unions are pro-worker and ideal for the balance needed in the US and across the globe. Balance is key between workers and owners. Without it we are left with growing wealth inequality such as… - ridiculous housing pr…

I'm anti-union AND pro labour regulation. Your government should be targeting wealth inequality with legislation and public services on all of these issues. The union tends to become another opaque organisation with a power hierarchy of its own and layers of internal politics and power struggles. The unions rarely if ever push for legislation change either because it would risk their existence. The corporations shoul…

The interests of the people working inside a union might align with the interests of the workers they represent but as in any other organization they are focused on their own job and careers. The people at the bottom are probably more idealistic. When I hear about strikes in my country and their purpoted goals and the way they are made, most of the time I feel like their goal is to advance the careers of somebody in the union and not to get something for the workers. Furthermore most unions have clear links with some political parties, from left to right. They are part of the overall political play to the next elections.

Re: U.S. Rules Apple Illegally Interrogated Staff and Confiscated Union Flyers

#28

Post by ExoticPearTree » Wed, May 08, 2024, 7:42 AM UTC

jollofricepeas wrote: post #7

I don’t understand how so many HNers are anti-union and anti-collective bargaining. The fact that corporations and billionaires are so anti-union and engage in regular conduct like this demonstrates that unions are pro-worker and ideal for the balance needed in the US and across the globe. Balance is key between workers and owners. Without it we are left with growing wealth inequality such as… - ridiculous housing pr…

> I don’t understand how so many HNers are anti-union and anti-collective bargaining.

I had the displeasure of working with union labor in the US, they would come in at 7 (who does that) and leave at 4 on the dot. Then worked with non-union labor: cheaper, worked as much as possible per day, got the job done faster. Money-wise it was less than union labor.

Now tell me how is good for me, as a company that needs stuff done, to use union workers?

Re: U.S. Rules Apple Illegally Interrogated Staff and Confiscated Union Flyers

#29

Post by pera » Wed, May 08, 2024, 7:44 AM UTC

ein0p wrote: post #16

walthamstow wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Neither of you are giving examples, only conjecture. Bad teachers are a noteworthy cause of poor schools. House prices wouldn't be so high if we had unions. Ok, prove it. Or at least give me some reasoning to go off.

What is the mechanism under which houses would be more affordable if employees had more money thanks to the unions? Real estate (and by extension rents) will take up any available slack on income.

I think gp was referring to tenants/renters unions: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tenants_union

They are quite common in the UK.

Re: U.S. Rules Apple Illegally Interrogated Staff and Confiscated Union Flyers

#30

Post by komali2 » Wed, May 08, 2024, 7:45 AM UTC

ein0p wrote: post #16

walthamstow wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Neither of you are giving examples, only conjecture. Bad teachers are a noteworthy cause of poor schools. House prices wouldn't be so high if we had unions. Ok, prove it. Or at least give me some reasoning to go off.

What is the mechanism under which houses would be more affordable if employees had more money thanks to the unions? Real estate (and by extension rents) will take up any available slack on income.

> Real estate (and by extension rents) will take up any available slack on income.

Only if allowed to do so - but yes, landlord are leeches who do nothing and in return soak up every penny of income they can from their tenants.

However, isn't the typical market-capitalist argument to this, "if they could be making more money now, they would?" Don't "markets" set the price of real estate?

Markets don't, but it's really funny to me when people argue against good things, such as increasing minimum wage, with absurdities, like somehow a minimum wage increase is simply a subsidy for landlords.