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U.S. Rules Apple Illegally Interrogated Staff and Confiscated Union Flyers

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Re: U.S. Rules Apple Illegally Interrogated Staff and Confiscated Union Flyers

#131

Post by alkonaut »

whamlastxmas wrote: post #128
alkonaut wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In what sense aren't police labor? "Labor" literally just means "work"? It's not like the unions of managers, pilots, lawyers, NHL players or software developers aren't "labor unions"? Policemen are employed so their organization as employees is a labor union (or just "union" for short)?

Police are what shows up when labor strikes. They’re part of the government, not a part of the collective “labor” that is the rest of the working world. As an example, police are part of an association but not a union. They aren’t legally allowed to strike anywhere in the US. They serve the interests of capitalism, which is the other side of the coin of workers’ rights

So they have a union, which is not a labor union? fair enough. It seems like a distinction without a difference for the topic.

Some restrictions on strikes usually covers lots of different jobs (e.g. nurses).

Re: U.S. Rules Apple Illegally Interrogated Staff and Confiscated Union Flyers

#132

Post by SamWhited »

sjtgraham wrote: post #19
wolverine876 wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Instead of the same old talking point, what solution do you propose? Should the executive branch agency make decisions by fiat, without due process? The use of due process doesn't make them a judiciary; it's just a more fair way to make decisions within their purview. Should we move every such judgment out of the executive branch's hands? First, they have to be able to make some decisions. But the heart of this issue…

> Instead of the same old talking point, what solution do you propose? Unnecessarily hostile opening, but full separation of powers as written in the Constitution. > Should the executive branch agency make decisions by fiat, without due process? It should not be adjudicating any kind of legal controversy. That is not the role of the executive branch. > The use of due process doesn't make them a judiciary; it's just a…

This whole thing is a misunderstanding of how the US system works. None of this is a legislative function, it is a determination by a rule making body. While I agree that the courts are often overworked and we need to vastly expand the number of judges to make sure cases are heard on time, this isn't the root of the reason the functions of the NLRB or the SEC aren't handled by the judiciary. It's that they're simply not judicial.

Instead, congress has designated some rule making authority to a group of experts, this group of experts is an executive body doing executive work, so it's normally under the executive branch. This body makes rules that have to follow any laws set down by congress, which is one check, and the courts can settle disputes between someone who has to follow the rules and the rule making body, or congress and the rule making body, etc. which is another check. The rule making body makes the initial determination on whether it's rules have been followed not because they're taking on some function of the judicial, but because they're the experts who know what their own rules mean. If they get it wrong, willfully abuse that power, etc. the judicial is still there. It's separation of powers all the way down. If you removed them from the executive and put them in the judicial you'd be giving some judge rule making authority and the ability to interpret those rules later. The whole point is to separate that between two branches of government.

Re: U.S. Rules Apple Illegally Interrogated Staff and Confiscated Union Flyers

#133

Post by whamlastxmas »

ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #115

In Japan, there's a really symbiotic relationship between unions and corporations. Unions are very powerful, but they also take stakes in the corporations. I'm pretty sure that union reps often sit on corporate boards. Japan has a long culture of employee relations, but they also work their asses off. I don't think Japanese unions would cover slackers, which is a popular view of US unions.

It’s a popular view of anti union propaganda. No one wants to work with lazy people and unions don’t especially want them either

Re: U.S. Rules Apple Illegally Interrogated Staff and Confiscated Union Flyers

#134

Post by SamWhited »

alkonaut wrote: post #130
SamWhited wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Labor" isn't being used in the dictionary definition of "doing work", here, it's being used in the sense of "the labor movement".

The movement that gave rise to the term is hardly relevant for who uses it today. Labor union means "employee organization". Do the police call their union "union" but not "labor union"? That's just a language thing then (The two terms aren't separated in my language - I always assumed that in English "union" was short for "labor union")

I'm struggling with what you meant by "it's just a language thing", that is of course true and what I was pointing out. For the purpose of good communication, everything is a language thing and language things are important.

When we say "the police union isn't a labor union", we're people rejecting them from the classification even though they use the word because we don't think they fit in with our values. That's because we have labor (movement) values. You could also talk about any group of employees getting together and acting towards a common goal and call that a union, or a labor union, that wouldn't mean that everyone else automatically means the same thing. In this case, the poster didn't mean that.

Re: U.S. Rules Apple Illegally Interrogated Staff and Confiscated Union Flyers

#135

Post by ChrisMarshallNY »

whamlastxmas wrote: post #133
ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #115

In Japan, there's a really symbiotic relationship between unions and corporations. Unions are very powerful, but they also take stakes in the corporations. I'm pretty sure that union reps often sit on corporate boards. Japan has a long culture of employee relations, but they also work their asses off. I don't think Japanese unions would cover slackers, which is a popular view of US unions.

It’s a popular view of anti union propaganda. No one wants to work with lazy people and unions don’t especially want them either

There's a lot of anti-union propaganda, and some of it is self-inflicted.

Anyone that has ever participated in a trade show at the Javits Center, has seen unions do serious damage to their own cause.

Re: U.S. Rules Apple Illegally Interrogated Staff and Confiscated Union Flyers

#136

Post by resource_waste »

emsign wrote: post #80

I simply don't trust companies that crack down on union organizers.

It doesnt matter, if you want blue bubbles or to compile for iOS, you pay the cartel.

I have a similar problem with M$, businesses use Teams, so I pay for it.

These companies are beyond our abilities to 'not use them'. Although Apple is one of the few companies I don't seem to have almost any products. There always was a better alternative when I needed it.

Re: U.S. Rules Apple Illegally Interrogated Staff and Confiscated Union Flyers

#137

Post by alkonaut »

SamWhited wrote: post #134
alkonaut wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The movement that gave rise to the term is hardly relevant for who uses it today. Labor union means "employee organization". Do the police call their union "union" but not "labor union"? That's just a language thing then (The two terms aren't separated in my language - I always assumed that in English "union" was short for "labor union")

I'm struggling with what you meant by "it's just a language thing", that is of course true and what I was pointing out. For the purpose of good communication, everything is a language thing and language things are important. When we say "the police union isn't a labor union", we're people rejecting them from the classification even though they use the word because we don't think they fit in with our values. That's be…

> I'm struggling with what you meant by "it's just a language thing", that is of course true and what I was pointing out. For the purpose of good communication, everything is a language thing and language things are important.

Ok fair enough. In english there is a distinction between just "Union" and "labor union". And under this distinction, a police union would not be a labor union. Language is important.

Moving beyond language though, I can't see where the distinction is important e.g. legally or ethically - which is perhaps why the distinction has disappeared or never existed in some other languages.

It's curious - perhaps related - that in English the difference between "salary" and "wages" also remains and is even relevant in some parts of the market.

Re: U.S. Rules Apple Illegally Interrogated Staff and Confiscated Union Flyers

#138

Post by resource_waste »

jollofricepeas wrote: post #7

I don’t understand how so many HNers are anti-union and anti-collective bargaining. The fact that corporations and billionaires are so anti-union and engage in regular conduct like this demonstrates that unions are pro-worker and ideal for the balance needed in the US and across the globe. Balance is key between workers and owners. Without it we are left with growing wealth inequality such as… - ridiculous housing pr…

Its Apple. They can't have cognitive dissonance about the company they fanboy over.

They come up with rationale because its part of their identity.

Consider how Tesla looks like Elon Musk and has a bad reputation. We need to defend Apple or Apple will start to look cheap like Elon Musk.

(That or its astroturfing, which we aren't allowed to talk about here, but isnt exactly unheard of in unionbusting, time to get deleted for talking about astrotrufing and history)

Re: U.S. Rules Apple Illegally Interrogated Staff and Confiscated Union Flyers

#139

Post by hobs »

baq wrote: post #114
pashsoft wrote: post #103

It seems like most of the "union problems" in the US arise from workers clashing with overly-greedy, abusive employers. The employer generally has more power in this relationship, and uses that power to squeeze every last bit of value out of their workforce. The workforce has few ways to push back against this, with unions being one of the options. Maybe if other options were on the table, there would be fewer union…

employers have HR, employees have unions. HR is corporate police. employers hate the idea of having employee police.

I don't know what you've heard, but HR is not police for the employer, they protect the employer from the employee 99% of the time.

Re: U.S. Rules Apple Illegally Interrogated Staff and Confiscated Union Flyers

#140

Post by geraldwhen »

MathMonkeyMan wrote: post #92
geraldwhen wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

White and Asian students, if stratified separately, rank in the top 10 academically world wide. Everyone else brings down the average, and it has nothing to do with teachers or how good they are. Teachers in my county are assigned to schools randomly, and yet some schools score 9/10 and others score literally 1/10 and 2/10 on great schools for academic performance. Funding between schools is the same. Teachers assign…

Why do black and hispanic students score worse?

I’m sure there are whole sociology degrees on the subject. But this is even true intra class, in kindergarten. Probably as early as preschool, from what I’ve seen here.
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